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  #1  
Old 05-31-2019, 01:19 PM
Bigbore
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Is this an MOA gun?



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I finally carved out a little range time this month. I assembled a gun out of parts and headed off to the range. I combined an Archangel stock, Green Mountain heavy taper barrel and BX trigger which was pulling at 1.5#'s after disassembly, cleaning, polishing and lube.



Even though the trigger was one of the lightest 10/22's I own, I was having a difficult time with my trigger pull and was very frustrated with my performance. I didn't have a decent rest which aggravated my poor shooting performance.

I shot about 20 10 shot groups using the typical ammo varieties common to the forum and determined that the Green Mountain barrel performed really well with the CCI Tactical among others and I had a lot of it so that was the bulk of my shooting. My trigger pull was so poor after my month long hiatus that higher cost ammo didn't reduce group size consistently enough to justify the cost. I still need to dial in the gun's ergonomics and shoot from a more stable platform. I noticed that when I felt my trigger pull was good, the gun would pretty much shoot same hole to cloverleaf groups at 50 yards, but then I would start to see the crosshairs dance and jerk the trigger.


There was a discussion on another subforum here about a guns accuracy demonstrated by group size. I posit that if a gun is showing mechanical accuracy that puts 70% of your shots in a consistently sized group it is OK to throw out two or three that can reasonably be attributed to poor shooting or some other equipment anomaly. As a demonstration I'll show this target I shot yesterday. The group all the way to the left is horrible. The center group and the group on the right would be almost MOA if I am allowed to exclude the 2 out of 10 shots circled in red. The other side of the argument is NO, it's a 1"+ gun. I think it is an unreasonable position based on the fact that the gun is clearly showing it is capable of MOA by stacking 8 out of 10 in an MOA sized group. Look at the 7 shot cloverleaf in the center group. Come on!


Unreasonable?


Last edited by Bigbore; 05-31-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 02:27 PM
GH41

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Nope. You are shooting MOA groups but not 1 MOA. At 50 yards 1 MOA is 1/2". I don't know if it is you or the rifle. Maybe get a known good shooter to try it.
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Old 05-31-2019, 02:50 PM
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As stated above not moa at 50 yards. A couple of things I noticed that can be remedied and that is as you stated get a better stable platformed and the fact that you are not used to the ergonomics of the stock and trigger contributed to your problems.

Just my opinion but I find that for me when a trigger is too light that my shooting is not the best because I may accidentally shoot just before I have stopped letting my breath out. I do best with 3lb pulls and two stage triggers.

You already know what you need to do so keep us posted.
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Old 05-31-2019, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH41 View Post
Nope. You are shooting MOA groups but not 1 MOA. At 50 yards 1 MOA is 1/2". I don't know if it is you or the rifle.
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Originally Posted by ms6852 View Post
As stated above not moa at 50 yards.
Guys, I know the entire group is not MOA at 50 yards.

I'm asking if anybody else sees that the gun is demonstrating that mechanically it is an MOA gun, not the shooter. For instance, if you take the 8 shot cluster in the center group and measure it CTC it is ~.56. 8 shots measuring .56 CTC at 50 yards doesn't get it done?

I need to adjust the scope and ad a bipod so that I can shoot tighter bad groups.

Last edited by Bigbore; 05-31-2019 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 03:31 PM
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It certainly has potential.
First, a steady rest to get the groups as tight as possible, then find out if accuracy can be improved by playing with free floating the barrel or supporting it. Sometimes changing up the action screw torque will make a difference. When you think you have it wrung out sufficiently, move on to experimenting with ammo to see what it likes.
Keep up the good work, remembering that free advice is often worth what you pay for it.
Lotsa helpful people here, and some critics too.
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Old 05-31-2019, 03:42 PM
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Looks like it has potential to me .. in the right hands
Bi-Pod is just barely better than nothin' IMO.. get good front and rear bags or a mechanical front + rear bag.. or a 1-pc. mechanical.. that's the way to get a great baseline.. from there for Vermin shooting a bi-pod is fine.. I personally really dis-like pods on the bench. The above rest solutions/tools are about the same money as a good bi-pod.. or less.. and will serve you MUCH better than a pod.. I always love shooting against a Gent on a Pod..
Your trigger/shooting work needs work... you know that. Dry Fire practice is cheap and must be a part of your practice.

Read up...
https://1022companion.wordpress.com/...fire-practice/

On the cheap this rest is not too shabby... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013RD4FC...detail_1?psc=1

higher end set up :

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/34...-shooting-rest
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/51...leather-filled
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Last edited by Chaser; 05-31-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:40 PM
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A 1 MOA gun will shoot into 1 MOA ...that is 1" at 100 yds. and 1/2" at 50 yds. If it's not meeting that criteria then it's not a 1 MOA gun . If you exclude all shots that land outside of 1 MOA then any gun can be a 1 MOA gun .
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:52 PM
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AND.. I might mention that the Simmons optic (I think) is NOT optimal... a better optic is in order. It has NO A/O and is likely under-powered with a thick crosshair... the A/O is more important than you think.. aim small miss small.. better yet don't miss IF you have dialed out the Paralax and you are completely focused.
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Last edited by Chaser; 05-31-2019 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbore View Post
I'm asking if anybody else sees that the gun is demonstrating that mechanically it is an MOA gun, not the shooter.
Until you eliminate the shooter problems, you don't know if it is an MOA gun.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:42 PM
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I didn't have a decent rest which aggravated my poor shooting performance.
Until you correct that problem, nothing else you do means anything.
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:58 PM
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. get good front and rear bags or a mechanical front + rear bag.. or a 1-pc. mechanical.. that's the way to get a great baseline..
These are good suggestions and I have some of this equipment, I just hate to make 4 trips back and forth to the car lugging gear. Easier to shoot crappy groups. I lucked into a great shooting group and have fun no matter what happens; I'll definitely try to dial it in though.

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Originally Posted by Empe View Post
A 1 MOA gun will shoot into 1 MOA ...that is 1" at 100 yds. and 1/2" at 50 yds. If it's not meeting that criteria then it's not a 1 MOA gun . If you exclude all shots that land outside of 1 MOA then any gun can be a 1 MOA gun .
So if I shoot a 5 shot group that is .48, then a 5 shot group that is .55 at 50 yards, it is only an MOA gun for one of those groups? "No, No, it shot MOA once so it is MOA from then on, even if you switch ammo and the groups open up to 2".

"If you exclude all shots that land outside of 1 MOA then any gun can be a 1 MOA gun". This is a valid criticism. I just look at two groups that only have 2 out of 10 that fall outside MOA with one of those being a 7 shot cloverleaf and I see something different. I don't think it is unreasonable to claim that the gun is definitely MOA as it sits. The shooter? Not so much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaser View Post
AND.. I might mention that the Simmons optic (I think) is NOT optimal... a better optic is in order. It has NO A/O and is likely under-powered with a thick crosshair... the A/O is more important than you think.. aim small miss small.. better yet don't miss IF you have dialed out the Paralax and you are completely focused.

The scope has AO, I just stashed it on the side out of view, it is a Simmons side focus which I picked up cheap. I actually like it and I'm going to try to see if I can bring my group sizes up to forum standards with it. I'm not completely opposed to trying a different scope eventually, just fairly stubborn for now.

Last edited by Bigbore; 06-01-2019 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:15 PM
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You have to count the flyers, unless you know you messed up the shot.
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:13 AM
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You have to count the flyers, unless you know you messed up the shot.
I know I messed up the 3 outside the center 7 shot ragged hole and the two circled on the right side target. Now is it an MOA gun?

I'm not trying to irritate everybody, just trying to make a point. Had I shot 40 5 shot groups and ended up with 5 that were MOA, would it be an MOA gun by forum standards? To reiterate, I know I was shooting poorly after a month off. The 10 shot groups significantly increase the chances that I'm going to open up a group but clear patterns emerge as well, which is why I like them. Everybody seems fixated on the group measurement and not the point of the post.

Nobody has commented on whether or not it is considered an MOA gun if you turn in say, 20% of your groups at MOA but 80% that aren't. How does a gun rate then?

Last edited by Bigbore; 06-01-2019 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigbore View Post
I know I messed up the 3 outside the center 7 shot ragged hole and the two circled on the right side target. Now is it an MOA gun?

I'm not trying to irritate everybody, just trying to make a point. Had I shot 40 5 shot groups and ended up with 5 that were MOA, would it be an MOA gun by forum standards? To reiterate, I know I was shooting poorly after a month off. The 10 shot groups significantly increase the chances that I'm going to open up a group but clear patterns emerge as well, which is why I like them. Everybody seems fixated on the group measurement and not the point of the post.

Nobody has commented on whether or not it is considered an MOA gun if you turn in say, 20% of your groups at MOA but 80% that aren't. How does a gun rate then?
I'll try again.. To shoot small groups the shooter, rifle and ammunition have to be consistent. If only 20% of your groups meet your accuracy expectations one or more of the three is the reason why. You cannot judge the potential of the rifle based on the fact that it shot good for 7-8 shots and maybe you screwed up 2 or 3 shots. Now if 80% of the groups were 1 MOA I would say yes. It is a 1 MOA gun.
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:24 AM
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I can take any consistent sub moa rifle any of you chaps may have and not shoot even close to moa with it. My cheap ammo or your pet ammo for it.
Does that make it Not a moa gun?
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