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Old 04-06-2019, 08:07 AM
spider
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Training Regimen



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If you train at all, what is your training regiment?

What would it be if you had lots of time to devote to it?

Practice like a match, same positions, in same order, with same number of shots?

Stress one position each session and really work on it?

Drills of some kind?

Whatever you feel like on that day?
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Old 04-06-2019, 08:24 AM
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My experience isn't with Appleseed, but I'm a former Master-class Highpower shooter and spent a couple of winters shooting 50-ft 4P smallbore, so I do have some thoughts on practice and training.

1) Practice the hard things you don't "like" doing. Find offhand to be a struggle? Practice offhand. I used to make it a point to dry fire offhand a couple of times a week and to do at least 1 10 shot string in a live fire practice.

2) Practice what you'll do in a match. Run a timer to keep track of each event. If you're practicing a rapid fire string, run a timer.

3) Don't force it. If you're not feeling something while practicing, stop. Either practice something else or pack up.

4) Remember, practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes PERMANENT! Focus on doing things the right way every time. Once it becomes automatic it becomes difficult to do it wrong when the pressure is on.

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Old 04-06-2019, 09:35 AM
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To paraphrase wanderingwalker only quality practice helps. You can train yourself to do things the wrong way.

Shooting perfect shots in only part of training. Just as important is the procedural side of it: Come to the firing line with all your "stuff" together so that you can get in position and be ready to fire the string without fumbling around with sights, sling, ammo.......etc. Be able to do all of the procedural things quickly, correctly and without thinking. Fretting over a misplaced magazine or a sling sliding down the arm will ruin an otherwise excellent score.

The importance of this aspect of shooting well cannot be overemphasized.

As to actual shot execution training you might consider shooting 50% more than what the actual string requires. This conditions you physically so you are not tired at the end of an actual competition string.

Last edited by NMC_EXP; 04-06-2019 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 04-06-2019, 01:23 PM
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Thank you both, that is terrific advise.
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Old 04-06-2019, 05:58 PM
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Practice often, shoot a lot of AQT's,use a timer, has worked for me. Good practice and a lot of ammunition fired will raise your scores.

Last edited by MacGhillemohr; 04-06-2019 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spider View Post
If you train at all, what is your training regiment?

What would it be if you had lots of time to devote to it?

Practice like a match, same positions, in same order, with same number of shots?

Stress one position each session and really work on it?

Drills of some kind?

Whatever you feel like on that day?
Excellent Topic!!

I have 2 posts in here, one on dry firing/practice, and one on Mental Management.

You really need both! They go hand in hand.

I am an Across The Course NRA High Power Rifle Master, and have earned my 250 patch with Appleseed. Only mentioning that to lend personal credibility to what I am about to advise.

I started my competitive journey with Project Appleseed 5 years ago. I TOTALLY SUCKED, cause I had never really learned to shoot properly.

What you practice, is VERY important, because re-enforcing BAD habits takes a LONG time to unlearn.

So....I will also caveat this with Appleseed (AS) is a great start, however not all instructors really understand the fundamentals. What is in writing is correct, however the application/demonstration is not always correct. Not bagging on AS at all...but keep this in mind, it is an ALL VOLUNTEER training corps...and the PRIMARY mission of AS is not to teach the fundamentals of marksmanship, it is to teach the forgotten history of the way we WON/EARNED this great country.

What is the difference between the Master and the Novice?

An NRA High Master and Distinguished (High Power Rifle) competitor answered this for me 5 years ago. The difference between the Master and the Novice is that the Master HAS PERFECTED THE FUNDAMENTALS! That simple! Nothing else....no hocus pocus, simply the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Back to my comment about knowing what to practice, and how to practice. This is where the subconscious mind is being trained. We teach the subconscious through practical application and conscious mind training. Repetition.....of CORRECT things.

So....take either of the 3 positions, UNDERSTAND/LEARN what the Fundamental position entails.....then practice that.

I practice thru dry fire, 3 times a week. 30 shots offhand. I no longer practice prone or seated.....but I probably should. I do not lose points in seated and prone often....but I do lose a LOT in standing. So I practice that.

Take at least 15 dry fire shots for every shot in competition, at least.

I practice/dry fire or live fire, as if I were at a match. I wear EVERYTHING I would wear in the match.

Here are a few links to posts I have in here that may help you.

Dry Firing:
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1138229

Mental Management:
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1139291

Last edited by navybowhunter; 04-09-2019 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Added Links
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spider View Post
If you train at all, what is your training regiment?

What would it be if you had lots of time to devote to it?

Practice like a match, same positions, in same order, with same number of shots?

Stress one position each session and really work on it?

Drills of some kind?

Whatever you feel like on that day?
Question to you Spider:

What is your personal goal? What are you looking to achieve?

THAT is very important. Without a personal goal, it is difficult to measure performance and improvement.

My goals this year are:

1. Perfect 250 score in AS
2. Earn NRA Master Card
3. Earn NRA Expert Card in mid range prone (higher cuts)
4. Complete my remaining legs needed to earn the Distinguished Rifle Badge

Once the goal/goals are established, then you can build the training regimen/routine around them.

I make my goals SMART: Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Timely

It makes ZERO sense in terms of say Appleseed....to say as a novice "My goal is a perfect 250", likely not a realistic goal.

Maybe the goal should be for the novice to Earn Rifleman. Then maybe to score a 225 or above, etc etc.

So....what are your personal goals? What are you looking to achieve?

R/
Chris
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:29 AM
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Wow, thank you Navybowhunter. That is superlative guidance. I will read those threads and take all of this to heart.
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMC_EXP View Post
Just as important is the procedural side of it: Come to the firing line with all your "stuff" together so that you can get in position and be ready to fire the string without fumbling around with sights, sling, ammo.......etc. Be able to do all of the procedural things quickly, correctly and without thinking. Fretting over a misplaced magazine or a sling sliding down the arm will ruin an otherwise excellent score.

The importance of this aspect of shooting well cannot be overemphasized.
ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON NMC EXP!

My daughter and I have been competing in NRA HP XTC 800 aggs, and typically there are 4 relays, so we share equipment/mat spotting scope stays setup etc. Makes it EASY

BUT....she shot her first EIC this weekend, and I KNEW they would seperate us (only fair).....but we were on same relay with adjacent firing points.

During the 3 hr drive to the hotel Friday night, I went over the EIC course of fire....similar to Appleseed...but different. When you stand (as you know), it is "With Bolts Closed on an Empty Chamber STAND"

Then it is
"With Bolts closed on an Empty Chamber....LOAD 2 rounds"

I went over this....how important it would be to SEAT the magazine when she is standing.....BUT

She "pussyfooted" the insertion of the magazine. It was not seated.....

Thankfully, it was during an NRA 800 Agg....(I made her stand for practice for the EIC the next day)

She gets down in seated....operates charging handle, settles into the shot and "Click"!

LOL
She then operates charging handle again....Boom/STOVEPIPE!

I stepped in and coached her not to clear the jam.....raised her hand...she got an Alibi!

Tough lesson to learn....but at least it was not during the EIC.

WELL......

EIC day, she forgets to put the dope on the rifle for 300 rapid!

LOL

LOTS to be said about what I call the LOGISTICS

She knows NOW why we practice with all our stuff (she hated that in the past).....but, having ones proverbial fecal matter in one sock can prevent a LOT of heartache...or tears from a 10 year old girl that should have cleaned 300 rapid and scored a whopping 59!

R/
Chris
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:33 PM
Fynn
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@Spider:

I like doing drills with the AQT style custom targets (3 MOA squares for prone, 4 MOA squares for sitting) and typically use a stopwatch rather than a timer. I like to build on accuracy and let speed come naturally with consistent practice.

FWIW, most of the folks I hang out with seem to practice 80-90% standing. These folks are not preparing for AS but rather competitions but a lot of us who shoot 3 position find standing the most illusive.

Over the last 4-5 months I have met several people that were looking into improving or beginning to learn marksmanship. I make it a point to remind folks that Appleseed, unlike other shooting events, is not a competition or match.

I hope you post here about your experience and will maybe pass along things you personally do to be a better marksman.
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navybowhunter View Post
LOTS to be said about what I call the LOGISTICS

She knows NOW why we practice with all our stuff (she hated that in the past).....but, having ones proverbial fecal matter in one sock can prevent a LOT of heartache...or tears from a 10 year old girl that should have cleaned 300 rapid and scored a whopping 59!

R/
Chris
Excellent example. The upside is that hard lessons are well remembered.

In my opinion having your "stuff" (both mental and equipment) together when you come to the line is an absolute requirement for good performance on target.

Being logistically squared away is the only way to be able to mentally relax and properly execute the other skill sets of good position and firing good shots.

When you watch the good shooters they follow a fixed routine every time they come to the line and get set up. By doing so they can make productive use of the 3 minute prep period - checking sight settings, getting into position & checking NPA, dry firing, watching wind flags....etc. This or be sprinting back to the car for magazine #2.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by NMC_EXP View Post

Being logistically squared away is the only way to be able to mentally relax and properly execute the other skill sets of good position and firing good shots.
Spot on again. There is NO TIME AT ALL for that at Nationals. The parking lot is just way too far away, LOL.

One cannot concentrate on the X ring, if they are fumbling for equipment or gear, or thinking about "What did I forget"! LOL
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:04 AM
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navybowhunter

Along the lines of our discussion, you might like this. I am not the author.

Don't We All Know Someone Like This?

It isnít your rifle, but you donít want to hear that. It isnít your barrel, it isnít your spotting scope. It isnít even your ammo. 1 1/2 moa rifles can shoot cleans if you hold hard. You suck because:

1. You donít have your act together. You get to the match with moments to spare before registration stops. You stand around talking about load development while you should be preparing for your preparation time. Questions? Read Tubbís article http://www.zediker.com/articles/tubb_tips_one.pdf

2. Your prep time is spent frantically unpacking gear, getting your ammo out, loading your mags, putting on your glasses/glove/coat/sling. The guys who will outshoot you today, and tomorrow, are in prep, relaxed and tuning their natural point of aim.

3. You continue to screw around with load development. Every single time you change loads you waste time at the range that could be used for actual practice. You know, PRACTICE. Screw the sandbags, you need to have your butt on the dirt learning to do the same thing every time you pull the trigger .

4. Quit %%%%%ing about the weather, we all have to shoot in it. Learn to like it so that when it sucks, you wonít. The guys who are whining are the ones who get outshot. Are you going to be one of them today? Yes, because YOU suck.

5. You continue to swap rifles, swap loads, and buy gear hoping to buy yourself into the next classification. Meanwhile, the kid who has been shooting the same rifle since he was 13 is wearing your pathetic %%% out. His databook is relevant, he knows what his loads will do today and tomorrow because he does the SAME THING EVERY MATCH.

6. You are a debilitating factor to those around you. Your pit service sucks. You are too busy talking when you should shut up and listen for the bullet to go overhead. You are disorganized, constantly having to borrow some vital piece of your gear to get going. You screwed with your rifle so much that stuff gets left loose, so you have to borrow tools to tighten the part you left loose. Taking spare parts and tools to a match is beyond your realm of comprehension. You are a distraction to every single person you borrow gear from.

7. Making mistakes is a natural part of learning to shoot well. YOU SUCK because you make the same mistakes over and over. You stress out over the mistakes because you repeatedly make the same error. The people who are outshooting you donít sweat their mistakes because they learn from them. Hereís a revelation: write down everything you did wrong after the match. Study the list of mistakes until you have internalized it. Analyze each mistake until you understand the root cause. At that point you can establish a corrective action. Write that down, too. Hereís an example:

A. My 300 yd RF group is a tight 91 at 6 oíclock. (mistake)

B. My shots are low. Why? Because I failed to put the 300 yd elevation on the sights. Why did I fail to put the elevation on the sights? Because I have not established a consistent method of applying the elevation to the sights. (root cause)

C. In the future, I will put the elevation for the next stage on the sights immediately after firing is complete and before I get out of position. During prep for the next stage, I will again run the sights to mechanical zero, then reapply the necessary elevation for that stage. (corrective action). I will do this every single time I fire the rifle, whether practicing or competing.

8. YOU SUCK because you stress out over bad shots. The people who are outshooting you do not think about the last shot they fired, good or bad. They probably donít even know what their score is at any given time. The only shot that matters is the one in the chamber. They are not out of contention until they have fired the last round. YOU SUCK because you gave up after that 5 in offhand.

9. YOU SUCK because you are not really interested in improving your scores or your ability. You spend time and money going to the match but you continue to make the same errors (reference item 7 above). You ask advice, but you are not interested in hearing the answers to your questions. Your questions are really an opportunity to spout off more excuses as you try to convince yourself that you can buy a few more points. There are very few quick fixes in our sport. The people who are kind (and patient) enough to answer your questions know that you will not follow their advice. Shots drifting out during your sitting rapid stage? How about listening to the guy who saw you shooting with your elbow four inches off your knee instead of announcing that a new shooting coat is all you need.

Any questions?
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by NMC_EXP View Post
navybowhunter

Along the lines of our discussion, you might like this. I am not the author.

Don't We All Know Someone Like This?
Oh yes! And....to be honest I am WAY guilty of many of the aforementioned things.....let's just call em what they really are....BS EXCUSES! LOL

This is the FIRST season I have stopped with the load development. I had time before to be meticulous with that.....but now with my daughter doubling my annual reloading workout..., just ZERO time for that.

Guess what? I made MASTER when I stopped doing load development.

Focus on what is important..., and it definitely ain't the gear or the ammo.

But....I think EVERYONE goes thru this at differing degrees.....then they either QUIT, or start taking the aforementioned advice!

Good stuff NMCEXP!

On a side note, I just changed my profile pic. A buddy chambered and built an M40-A5 (.308 win USMC Sniper Rifle). I shot with him this past weekend at Quantico, we shot the 300 yard target at 600 yards the MR target at 800 yards, and the LR target at 1000 yards!

I shot High Master scores, using a brand new rifle (only had a 100 yard zero on it), using military out of the box M118 LR (.308 win with a 175 SMK).

Awesome weekend for sure.....

r/
Chris
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:08 AM
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I'm guilty of hijacking this thread. I'm also guilty of several items on that list I posted. Exception being ammo tweaks. I started with a Garand then M1A. I shot the same loads 90% of folks did back then. If that ammo would not shoot cleans there was a problem with the rifle or trigger puller.

Impressive performance with the M40 clone. My wife has a Remington 40X repeater in 7.62mm. She wants to give mid range F-class a go with it. That thing really shoots.

I need to give the M1A a rest and spend more time with the bolt guns.
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