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Old 03-25-2019, 10:08 PM
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Cool Dot MOA for Bullseye



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I have mounted a Matchdot II on my 41PC for Bullseye. I am experimenting with the different dot sizes. Our club shoots indoors with the appropriate 50 foot targets.

I am trying the 2 and 4 MOA dots, and read online that 2 MOA dots make you chicken finger or not "accept" the wobble. Lol. I also read "aim small/miss small."
I do notice that with the 4 moa dot, my POI seems to be higher. I am too new to dots to know if I'm chasing the smaller dot or not.

I also experimented with using the 2 moa for the Slow Fire and 4 for timed/rapid with some success.

Appreciate hearing what other Precision pistol shooters are using or experimenting with as far as dot moa.

Last edited by Trigger71; 03-25-2019 at 11:50 PM. Reason: spell
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:39 PM
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hamden
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Don't hesitate to try even bigger dots. I use 8moa sometimes bigger.
And try different brightness settings in different light conditions.

And if you are a noob, keep your eye on the dot. Get a good Rx lens if need be.
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  #3  
Old 03-26-2019, 12:02 AM
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Trigger71
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And if you are a noob, keep your eye on the dot. Get a good Rx lens if need be.[/QUOTE]

I am a noob to using a dot for BE, but tried both schools of focus on X or dot. So far it's been the X, so thought I'd just stick with that.

Glad you brought up Rx lens. I asked my Optometrist whether the single plane of using a dot would be different from the front sight post focus; he was unsure about the differences for the dot. I have RX Rangers from I use for wing shooting, but I don't use for iron sights as they did not have bifocal. Maybe I'll try those??
Opps, I went from dot size to Rx lens Maybe I'll start a new thread...
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:14 AM
LDBennett
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I've been shooting red dots for 30 years and learned a few things along the way:

1). Adjustable brightness is my friend. I use it to make the apparent size of the dot match the black bull size. When the dot size just almost covers the black bull I get the best results

2). Regardless of what the manufacturers hype says, red dots can have parallax error. I make sure to center the dot in the red dot's field of view.

3). With my normal glasses I focus through the red dot onto the target and let the red dot float, controlled by pointing the gun. The red dot reveals in spades my shake. When I can see the shake I can then control it better.

4). Cheap red dots SUCK. They are not reliable or durable. If you did not pay more than $100 for one then you bought junk.

5). For me personally, I do not like the small reflex type red dots. I prefer the tube type (UltraDot in particular). I find for me the aiming accuracy is enhanced by the longer distance from the LED to the back side of the coated front lens element that reflects the LED image.

6). In my old age I put red dots on almost every gun that will accept one. In my case my eyes have deteriorated with age related macular degeneration so I need all the help I can get. I can still shoot but maybe not forever more. But over the last 30 years I have embraced red dots, even with good eyesight years ago.

I have tried to understand the optical physics of red dots and have only had limited success even with my engineering background. The target is on a plane of eye focus that is infinity where as the dot is reflecting off a piece of glass inches from the eye. There is no optical correction for that difference in focus so the dot is just a blurry ball of light. That difference makes parallax a potential problem if you don't center the dot in its field of view.

LDBennett
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:00 AM
Scott860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger71 View Post
I have mounted a Matchdot II on my 41PC for Bullseye. I am experimenting with the different dot sizes. Our club shoots indoors with the appropriate 50 foot targets.

I am trying the 2 and 4 MOA dots, and read online that 2 MOA dots make you chicken finger or not "accept" the wobble. Lol. I also read "aim small/miss small."
I do notice that with the 4 moa dot, my POI seems to be higher. I am too new to dots to know if I'm chasing the smaller dot or not.

I also experimented with using the 2 moa for the Slow Fire and 4 for timed/rapid with some success.

Appreciate hearing what other Precision pistol shooters are using or experimenting with as far as dot moa.


I have the Matchdot ii and just tried the 4 Ma dot with intensity turned down for the last two matches. The result: my two best scores or the season. There is definitely something to the bigger dot school of thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:59 AM
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I use a Vortex Venom on my Model 52 with a 3 MOA dot and it is perfect for Bullseye. On my 41, I use the Tru Tec from TruGlo, also with a 3 MOA and it is as accurate as I can hold it. From a rest it is deadly accurate. See pics below:

https://i.imgur.com/CBfLfGB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ssqvkzc.jpg

Last edited by handlebar; 06-25-2019 at 07:43 AM.
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  #7  
Old 03-26-2019, 12:05 PM
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I'll be the contrarian here.

I have MD II's (the older ones) on both a Nelson conversion and a Smith 41. I like them and usually shoot with 4 moa dot and polarizing filter (always outdoors). They work very well indeed. Brightness is normally set on 8 or 9 (11 being brightest).

But, I have Holosun 403B (2 of them) and a 503C on other .22's and actually prefer them over the MD II's for short range work. I keep the dot a few clicks below maximum brightness and never ever have a problem, again outdoors only. The 403B is not the nicest looking thing, but mounts sturdily on a PIC rail and batteries last darn near forever if you tun it off before casing the gun. Next time I need one I'll buy the 507C just for kicks.

I'm a look at the target thru the tube kind of guy. My old eyes need the dots, as I cannot see a front sight anymore. bob
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:49 PM
matchgrade
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I've gone back and forth with dot size and have about concluded that the 4 moa size gives the best results for me. I have a Matchdot II on a Smith 41 PC and an older Ultradot 4 moa on a Hammerli. The smaller 2 moa dot seems to be a little too "twitchy", I end up trying to snatch the trigger. I shoot almost exclusively indoors and prefer the dimmest setting for either dot size. Really not a huge difference with either and I'll continue to experiment.
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:47 PM
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Agree with LDBennett. Red dots absolutely can have parallax error. If you don't believe it, try shooting air pistol and air rifle at 10 meters with a red dot. Some models are all but useless at that distance.

As for me, prefer to fairly fill the bull with dot size at a given distance. Get a lot of use out of 4 MOA dots, but have recently been using an old Leupold Gilmore with an 8 MOA and love it.

Also much prefer tube style dots. Acquisition is easier for me. Big fan of Ultradots. My go to brand.

Last edited by Rimfiregal; 03-26-2019 at 06:53 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-27-2019, 07:55 PM
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Good Morning Trigger

I run a bullseye team in Michigan and have assisted a number of new shooters getting into bullseye.

As for the red dots, not long ago there was a survey on the Bullseye L forum. I forget what the actual numbers were but about 40 percent used a 4 moa dot, 35 percent used a 2 moa dot, and the rest used a different size. The problem is that I have a number of red dots in various dot sizes and have some that have 2 moa written on the side that are obviously larger then some with the 4 moa on the side.

Newer shooters tend to be really particular on dot size while the more accomplished shooters are not that picky. Generally, I recommend the Ultra Dot Match Dot II with the adjustable dot size so you can adjust it to your liking.


What is most universal is that Bullseye shooters prefer the tube style dots whereas the run and gunners or the shoot and scoot people like the reflex type. While I do see a couple reflex sights on the line, I personally use the frame of the tube type dots to line up the gun subconsciously.


Also, most newer shooters tend to go for the 30 mm tube diameter believing that the larger field of view is beneficial. The experienced shooters usually switch to a 1 inch tube after a while, I think that we no longer need the large view but for me it just feels better in my hands with the smaller tube.


What I feel strongly about is do not get a cheap red dot. seen too many new shooters get frustrated getting their dot zeroed and some of them are forced to use Kentucky windage until they can get a better dot.


Personally, I would recommend a aimpoint (pricey but worth it) or a ultra dot. There are some other brands that work very well but I am somewhat hesitant to mention them because I have run across examples that did not perform.


Hope this helps you out and if you are ever in the Lansing area, shoot me a pm and we can go out shooting. I have a number of handguns with various dots that can give you a good idea what the differences are.


REgards,


Crankster
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  #11  
Old 04-01-2019, 05:24 PM
mr alexander
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Dot MOA for Bullseye

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger71 View Post
I have mounted a Matchdot II on my 41PC for Bullseye. I am experimenting with the different dot sizes. Our club shoots indoors with the appropriate 50 foot targets.

I am trying the 2 and 4 MOA dots, and read online that 2 MOA dots make you chicken finger or not "accept" the wobble. Lol. I also read "aim small/miss small."
I do notice that with the 4 moa dot, my POI seems to be higher. I am too new to dots to know if I'm chasing the smaller dot or not.

I also experimented with using the 2 moa for the Slow Fire and 4 for timed/rapid with some success.

Appreciate hearing what other Precision pistol shooters are using or experimenting with as far as dot moa.
Trigger71,

I started shooting Bullseye in 1979, using pistols that were equipped with iron sights. Twenty two years later, I purchased my very first dot sight, an UltraDot 25. This model has the following specifications: five inches long, one inch tube diameter, 3.9 oz. weight, fixed four minute dot, and eleven manually adjusted brightness settings. It balances nicely on my High Standard Victor. (Yes, I know, this is the Model 41 Section of RFC!). A few thoughts and observations based on my experience:

1.) All of my shooting with the UltraDot has been on a 25 yard indoor range. Before buying any sight, I had the chance to look through two different UltraDots that were mounted on pistols belonging to other people. One had a 30mm, while the other had a 1 inch tube. I did not like the larger sight for two reasons. It was heavier and it also allowed me to see the other targets downrange that were on each side of mine. This proved to be distracting.

2.) Some competitors focus on the dot. Others look through it and focus on the target. Each technique has its adherents with their attendant arguments. Both of them can work. Having focused on iron front sights for 22 years, it just made sense to me to now focus on the dot, which is what I do.

3.) Even though my sight has a fixed 4 minute dot, I do find that the size of that dot appears to vary, depending on the brightness setting being used. In the beginning, some of the more senior shooters told me to use a setting of "2" or "3" for Slow Fire. Trying this out, the apparent wobble was greatly exaggerated, causing me to have a tendency to "pick 'em off". I typically use "7" for Slow Fire and "10" or "11" for the Timed and Rapid Fire Stages. These settings make the dot easier to follow in recoil and encourage the use of "area aiming".

4.) The age of the battery may cause me to vary the brightness setting being used. With a brand new one, it gets turned down. With an older one, I have to crank it up to get the desired effect. The setting selected also depends on what my vision may be like on a particular day.

5.) "Aim small/miss small"? (From the movie, "The Patriot"?). As others have said, do not hesitate to try larger dots. Or, in my case, brighter ones. For the sake of discussion, suppose a dimmer/smaller dot just happens to be over the exact center of the target when the pistol is fired. For the next shot, a much brighter/larger dot has been selected. It also just happens to be over the exact center of the target when the pistol is fired. Both bullets have gone through the same hole, providing you with the same point value for each shot. There is no difference in the end result in each case. But, does the brighter/larger dot help you to avoid chicken finger on a more regular basis?

6.) With all due respect to "Benjamin Martin", adopt the practice of "area aiming" when shooting Bullseye. As a noob, I was all hung up on the mistaken notion that the trigger should not be pulled until the sights were perfectly motionless on a specific point of the target. "Area aiming" greatly helped me to improve my scores. It works when using iron sights or red dots. A Google Search will readily bring this topic up for you to read about, if not familiar with it.

7.) I once shot a friend's Model 41 that had a Burris Fast Fire Reflex Sight on it. I had some trouble finding the dot when recovering from the recoil. Being a tube type of sight, the UltraDot speeds recovery immensely. It automatically helps me to line up the pistol with the target.

8.) With my bifocals, the image of the dot is not clear and crisp. Therefore, I take my older, single vision glasses to the range. They work well for me, improving things greatly.

9.) "I do notice that with the 4 moa dot, my POI seems to be higher." Why would this be so? Here's what others have told me. I do not know if this is correct or not. A Matchdot II allows you to select a 2-4-6-8 minute dot by rotating an externally mounted dial. For each option, a different sized hole gets positioned in front of the LED that is fixed inside of the sight. Suppose that the very center of the first hole is perfectly aligned with the very center of the LED. You then turn the dial to bring the second hole into position. Is its center in the same exact position as the first one's was? Or is it sitting a little higher or lower with respect to it? How do the other two remaining holes line up? Over time, with continued use, will additional slop become present in the mechanism that allows you to select the different dot sizes?

10.) Finally, experiment to find out what works best for you. Try all of the suggestions that everyone has presented here. Use the ones that bring success and disregard those that don't.

P.S. Click on this to read about "area aiming": http://bullseyepistol.com/salyer2.htm

Last edited by mr alexander; 04-03-2019 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Added Commentary
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  #12  
Old 04-01-2019, 11:35 PM
Krogen
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Thanks, everybody! There's a lot of good information in this thread. I use Ultradots and have found the largest dot on the dimmest visible setting works best for me. I focus on the dot.
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:55 AM
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Thanks, everybody! There's a lot of good information in this thread. I use Ultradots and have found the largest dot on the dimmest visible setting works best for me. I focus on the dot.
Id agree I got a similar one from Millett I think with both adjustable dots(size) and variable brightness settings..I figured I could then go practice and figure out which size/brightness suited me. I got the Millett because it was a NOS model that was less expensive to start out with.


So far so good..if it ever breaks im out $50 and then if go to the Ultradot
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