Safes And RSC's, An Overview - Page 2 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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  #16  
Old 07-15-2015, 05:48 AM
txc85

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Great write up and I agree with you completely!

The gun safe market is one of deception, where cosmetic embellishments are used to hide major security vulnerabilities. It often results in consumers winding up with an inappropriate safe for their application, setting the stage for a huge loss.

This clever marketing has convinced many consumers that a cheap safe is "good enough"...in reality, they actually make it easier to have their items stolen due to asset consolidation in one poorly made and easy-to-defeat locking container. Since a few different types of cordless tools can literally cut those 10-16 gauge steels into half in a matter of seconds (heck...a fire axe can penetrate armor that thin...), this is making it even easier for the criminal than scattering and hiding the assets. They can now steal everything from one location. The misleading advertising attempts to deceive consumers into believing that RSC safes offer a moderate-high level of security, that all Group 2 locks are the same quality, and that Group 2 locks are high-security locks...yikes!

I sold safes for a while and I was always amazed how many people considered price over everything else. They wanted the cheapest thing and in their mind that was substantial security/fire protection and so they saw no need to get something pricier. They didn't want to hear anything else...and so many would wind up putting collections worth well over $50,000 into a RSC safe or a safe with no rating at all. It appears that this demand for cheap safes has resulted in a market flood in which steel is dramatically reduced to save money on the materials cost and save money on the shipping. To further cut costs, shallow welds and low-quality locks deliver an even less secure (and less reliable) product. Crappy boltwork further cuts cost. With all of the marketing, it's easy to conclude that big box stores sell safes that are actually secure. But that is rarely the case. If one puts expensive contents in a RSC or a non-rated safe, in a matter of seconds or a few minutes it can easily end like this:



or this


or perhaps this



I find there to be a night and day difference between an employee at a big box store and a safe expert/locksmith. The latter is knowledgable, able to assist in finding the correct product, and can follow through to ensure everything is installed and operating correctly. It's worth the investment to buy from the safe expert IMO. They will ensure that their customers have fire and/or burglary protection that is appropriate for one's specific application. Additionally, it forges a relationship in which the buyer has someone local to contact should anything ever go wrong (for a rapid response), or for periodic service.

Understanding these shortcomings of most gun safes can help avoid a potentially disastrous situation, and your write up hits the nail on the head... I often advised customers that if price was a major issue that a used security safe was a much more attractive option than a new gun safe given how dramatic the difference in between the typical gun safe and a true security safe (*with exemption to the hand full of true high-security gun safes.) I also feel that a B-rate safe is a good minimum rating for when burglary resistance is desired, but pricing or weight is an issue...a good B-rate safe can present a formidable barrier that can guard a collection of moderate value, giving substantially greater attack protection than a RSC safe built only to minimum specs.

------------------------------------------------------

This is one of my favorite videos of where advertising meets actual build quality. The maker has promoted this product as being able to survive a "brutal attack". In reality, this was pretty primitive as far as attacks go. It was likely committed by a single unskilled individual with only hand tools. They may have been hopped up on meth (or had only one arm.) This attack destroyed the safe's bolt work (and the safe nearly failed completely.) If an attack this simple managed to do this to the safe, it illustrates the limited amount of security one should expect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_1M6jTqES8
This video also shows why locking bolt thickness is NOT all that important (what is important is the boltwork itself and what the bolts are locking into (e.g., a bolt channel)...gun safe makers use the "massive super duper jumbo locking bolt" pitch to distract attention away from the inner boltwork itself and/or the locking and relocking mechanisms.)

-----------------------

By comparison, this IS a "brutal attack", performed by the UL safecracking team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860

Last edited by txc85; 07-15-2015 at 05:58 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-17-2015, 06:47 PM
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Contratulations on your retirement....

CB900 hope you long, relaxing well deserved retirement after a lifetime of achieving your dreams and goals while assisting the public in something that you also enjoy.

Unfortunately the run of the mill gun safes that are available to the general public here in Oz are nothing more than a lockable steel box with no protection against fire or the serious thief. Mine are secured and locked in a locked shed with the dog roaming the back yard as well.

With the range of portable power tools available these days it would not take much to break into the shed and lockers making off with the goods. Suppose one could install cameras and/or tracking devices as a defence but this will only add to the overall cost.

Serious built fire and vandal proof safes are as you say expensive but are purpose built to suit the owners requirements. When you consider the overall cost of the firearms they hold it could be up to and more than 1/10 the price of the contents.

As you mentioned previously I purchased what I could afford or get my hands on at the time...not exactly the desired outcome but legal safes in Queensland to hold rifles and handguns!
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  #18  
Old 07-19-2015, 10:35 PM
txc85

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Originally Posted by Hagar61 View Post
CB900 hope you long, relaxing well deserved retirement after a lifetime of achieving your dreams and goals while assisting the public in something that you also enjoy.

Unfortunately the run of the mill gun safes that are available to the general public here in Oz are nothing more than a lockable steel box with no protection against fire or the serious thief. Mine are secured and locked in a locked shed with the dog roaming the back yard as well.

With the range of portable power tools available these days it would not take much to break into the shed and lockers making off with the goods. Suppose one could install cameras and/or tracking devices as a defence but this will only add to the overall cost.

Serious built fire and vandal proof safes are as you say expensive but are purpose built to suit the owners requirements. When you consider the overall cost of the firearms they hold it could be up to and more than 1/10 the price of the contents.

As you mentioned previously I purchased what I could afford or get my hands on at the time...not exactly the desired outcome but legal safes in Queensland to hold rifles and handguns!
Hi Hagar...Are there regulations that limit what safes you can versus cannot have, or export/import restrictions that greatly change the price? Also are these limits also related to laws that state locking containers must have some sort of Federal or local dept of justice approval?

Does Australia use their own safe rating system in which a division of government needs to test and certify any model before sale, or do they use the UK Class rating or US' UL or DOJ ratings?

I really wish we had a universal rating system for safes that everyone adhered to...in the States since we still lean heavily on the English system, it wreaks havoc given how many safes are partly or completely fabricated in areas using Metric (often making certain specs hard to verify). Beyond that, our grading systems for safes are pretty confusing and the arbitrary intervals among grades are spaced too far apart IMO.
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  #19  
Old 07-23-2015, 11:37 PM
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Queensland weapons storage info....

I have attached the link for weapons storage in Queensland - https://www.police.qld.gov.au/progra...rage/howto.htm

This is what has to be in place for the categories to be securely stored as stated. There are other links to view for alternative storage when travelling etc.

Not sure about the safe rating system but I guess there are standards to comply with for sure. Mine are 3mm plate with a lockable front door and internal lockable storage box which is legal in Qld to store handguns in.
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2017, 12:12 PM
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I've had a Steelwater gun safe for years now and let me tell you, it's sustained some beatings!

Depends what your budget is really, if you're looking for firearm storage under the $1000 mark, then you could check out https://catchthemeasy.com/best-gun-s...r-1000-review/ for some ideas.
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  #21  
Old 06-23-2017, 03:23 AM
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Of the three you mentioned what are the pros and cons to each? I am internet familiar with Brown and Graffunder. Don't quote me but I believe I was leaning towards the Brown but I'll need to go back and research again.

Also, am I correct in saying that to get security you have to give up something in fire protection and vise versa? My location needs more security than fire protection.
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2018, 12:18 PM
JustBC

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Thanks, this is a great post. I want to reinforce something you said. It is better to save up for the correct safe. Get the biggest one that will fit in your house. I had to sell my first safe for practically nothing. I ran out of space. I needed a bigger safe. I did not have the space to store the old one while it sold. That was a lesson.
I ended up getting one of the safe/lock combos that you recommend in this article. (this was more luck than knowledge at the time).
I spent a fair bit of money but that is nothing against the investment it protects.
I did realize one thing by watching the UL video. I store all my tools pretty close to the safe. Perhaps I should not make it so easy for potential thieves.
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  #23  
Old 04-13-2018, 01:26 AM
rc.

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Strategy is a must

Great post! This post is very informative and I want to contribute from my personal experience. I recently disrupted a burglary and the thieves had broken into a building with steel doors by bending the frame and found my shotshell storage. I had them in a large job box and I think what defeated them from breaking it open was having little space between the wall and lock face with only the piano hinge easily attacked. There was enough weight in there it could not be moved to work on it. They beat on it a bit but couldn't make any progress with their pry bar because there was no space to get leverage at the front. Since that happened I've bought other job boxes and tried to lock up all my pry bars, grinders etc. A skilled criminal will use anything you have laying around against you. They used tools from one building to get into the next.

I agree an RSC is not a true safe, probably not much more secure than a job box and as shown, if given enough time a thief can get into any RSC. That's why an RSC must only be part of an overall security plan that may include security system, cameras and other monitoring devices that can alert you if someone has entered your property when you are away. The less time a thief has to rob you, the less likely they will be getting into your RSC. Locating your safe where there's not much room to gain leverage can help slow any potential theft. I Can't say it won't happen, but the chances of losing your guns increase the longer thieves are undetected. One neighbor had an alarm system, the thieves left as soon as the alarm sounded just damaging the door. Another neighbor had no alarm and they were in his shop for a very long time rummaging around.

I used to consider rural living an advantage. In recent years, thieves have become more active in county locations because if you don't have neighbors next door that watch your house it's easier to clean you out. They may bring in more than 1 or 2 people as organized gangs with enough muscle to carry your RSC away so they can break it open at their leisure.

If you can stop people from trespassing with dogs, fences and cameras, you will have a much better chance of avoiding an attack on your dwelling and valuables. While nothing can guarantee you'll never be robbed, you can take visible steps that will discourage a criminal from picking your house.

I've learned a bit about cameras in the last six months.

H rated cameras are not as good as P rated cameras.

720p is supposed to be better than 980H.

720p may be good for your walkway to identify people, but it may not give the resolution needed to identify people or vehicle plates at longer distances than a few yards.

1080p has something like twice the resolution of 720p and there is 2K and 4K cameras available with a jump in price as you move to higher resolutions.

While 1 and 2 mp (megapixel) cameras may be ok for the walkway to your front door, 4K is at about 8mp and 2K only about 4mp. I have a 12mp game camera that's much better at identifying license plates than my live video cameras.


When shopping for a surveillance system there are a couple of other factors of importance to consider. A lot of the systems out there use cheap Chinese software that may send pictures back to china or in other ways require "add ons" to work in internet explorer and may pose a security risk. Research the reviews of the operating system before buying cameras as is may save you from problems later on. If you can't view your cameras well remotely, they are not as useful to detect crime.

rc
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  #24  
Old 06-09-2018, 10:55 PM
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Buy used. It is the only way I could afford something decent. Cost much less than a big regular gun safe (RSC).

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