Well, I got the chance to machine my Razor receiver and bolt today!
Also, I was surprised at how light the recoil spring is! I have found a like sized replacement but with twice the rating. The SF spring is around 62# rating, the possible replacement is 124#.
Also going to machine a long brass follower. The SF follower is 5g, the joiner (not really coupled mass) is 3g. I am thinking that a 3" long follower should add a few grams to the bolt mass. SF charging handle by itself is 22g. Going to see how much mass I can add...can't hurt, right? I was surprised that brass is slightly more dense that stainless steel! Learn something every day!
I did not install my KID +10% spring. If these mods are successful, I would rather anyone else not *have* to add another item.
Will keep adding to this post as I go along, any comments or suggestions welcome!
Robert
Here we go again!
Indicated within .0005 over 4~5"
Barrel hole location within .001
Final drill operation, stepped up over a few sizes
.6875 reamer ready
Done
Looks good!
.1875 ream for TG holes
Numbers look familiar?
V-block threads
5/16" magazine hole @ 3 degrees
Milling the bolt shelf (about .050~.060) so the bolt will drop in easy
Total bolt mass = 302g/10.8oz. Also shortened the barrel from 20" to 16". I believe this will give me the best possible performance.
I have spring wise to try this time out:
1) 5-1/2" SF only
2) 5-1/2" SF + 1" med
3) 4-3/4 med only
4) 4-3/4 med + 1" SF
5) 7" factory length SF (worked reasonably well last time out)
Trying lot shorter and lighter springs. The extractor did not kick out last time, that was with a 6" (-1" from factory length) SF spring. My lightest this time is the #1. An additional 1/2" was removed for double duty use with the 1" med progressive setup.
Will try the spring combos and try to sight in the scope. I am hoping this will be a good reliable shooter...if I keep the chamber clean!:bthumb:
If it is still inconsistent, I *might* consider a 22WMR conversion. With the added bolt mass and short barrel, it should be fine. Ammo sure is cheaper!
Shot well, a couple FTE (due to spring changes), multiple stovepipes and two rim blowouts. Many flat cases, but more were bulged...same as last time.
Seems the 16" barrel does change the timing. Springs that worked fair last time were no good this time. Seemed to like even lighter springs. Shot a lot with a 5-1/2" of SF factory spring. Increasing the spring weight/length leads to occasional stovepipes. Makes no difference in bulging bases. This is the shortest barrel/spring configuration and it still does not vent quickly enough.
IMHO, 17HMR base bulging cannot be addressed by any spring weight/length combinations. If you can do it or have done it, more power to you!
I am going to go the 22WMR route. It has been fun to R&D and try to make the 17HMR functional. The brass is too thin and in an autoloader, not supported 100% around the base which causes blowouts. It is not 100% safe and reliable. My boat paddle 10/22 is more fun and reliable.
The 17HMR is a fun cartridge to shoot, but this is not a fun rifle (as an autoloader) to shoot due to it being sooo finicky, if that makes any sense!
Ordered a 22WMR barrel today for the next chapter of the SelectFire Magnum build! Should be fine, especially with the bolt mass increases and experience gained during the 17HMR phase!:bthumb:
Robert
Cases as fired
Star from cut off barrel
Last incarnation of the 17HMR...before becoming a 22WMR!:AR15firin
It's unfortunate we can't make them work, but sometimes you just have to punt. I will try your handle when it arrives, and play with the springs. But I, like you, am growing tired of trying to make it work. Let us know how the 22 mag works out.
Yes, I feel the same way -- with all the work and testing you guys did I was expecting it would all work out ok. I had basically did my Razor Magnum receiver, finished up some cleanup work on the bolt, added the 77/22 22 magnum barrel and went to the range and shot it. Only had a minor problem with the 25 round magazine but that was nothing. I did realize, after reading a thread about the GM 77/22 barrels -- they have match chambers since they are built for Ruger bolt acting rifles so they may be a little tighter. they are the only barrels I have used in my projects -- a 10/22 conversion to 17 HMR and my Razor Magnum in 22 magnum. I got the barrels used and they were fairly cheap at the time. I don't think that using a 77/22 barrel for the 17 HMR will correct any problems that you've had but if you run into trouble going to the 22 magnum, it may help out.
Everything in my Razor is exactly what I received from Select Fire except some clean up on the pocket in the bolt face and some other bolt cleanup. The springs are the same as I received them. The ammo I've been shooting is the Hornady 30gr V-max stuff and whatever CCI maxi-Mag ammo I can find at WalMart. I like shooting the Hornady 30gr V-max because it seems to be really accurate.
Has anyone tried a kidd trigger? Im not sure exacting how it lays out but i know cocking my rifle with the kidd in it is WAY harder than when i had the stock trigger group in even with the wolfe magnum hammer sping in it. I would expect this would keep the bolt closed longer. PS the kidd trigger has thier magnum spring it as well. rifle runs better than 99% failure free
I wonder if the single stage is the same setup as the 2 stage? Im guessing not. Would be worth looking into. I know with both of the 17s i did they both worked better after the install of the kidd triggers. If i can find my fish gauge ill weigh the bolt pull.
I took the two stage out of my 10/22 and put it into my Razor early in my attempt, it didn't help me then. I think it's going to take more than a trigger to make my Razor 17 work correctly, lol. But the two triggers work completely different, the single stage is very similar to the factory setup. The two stage functions completely different.
I am looking at the differences in our setups and see my 16" vs your 18" barrel, 6" SF spring vs 6-1/2" med spring in yours, stock SF guide rod spring vs your KID +10% and the slug of mallory metal in your bolt. Maybe 317g is the threshold? Mine is at 302.
I shot that same CCI and it was not noticeably different than the ballistic tipped Federal. Good for you though!
I am still going to convert to 22WMR since all the parts are enroute and the added bolt mass should help the 22 mag also.
Glad the bolt handle worked out for you! If nothing else, it sure is comfortable!:bthumb:
I have an extra Kidd +10% guide spring I can send you, lmk if you want it. Also, there was a big difference in case bulges between the 7" sf and the 6.5" .040". The CCI 20 grain worked better also. If you added Mallory to your bolt, you would be @ 338 grams, that may make the difference, along with the Kidd +10 and CCI 20 grain. You've come this far, it's just a little further.
^^Yes, that +10 spring would be great! Surely cannot hurt. Please...and thanks!
Maybe that will help. I thought I read here that someone (OMR?) said springs "inline" with the bolt centerline were better meaning the guide rod spring. Can't remember for sure.:shakehead
That's why I was asking if the bolt and mallory was carbide hard or needed grinding. Would like to add it but we don't have a surface grinder in house. Can it be done with carbide tooling? "338" is a very interesting number!
I shot that dang CCI 20gr FMJ. More or less same % of flat vs bulged as Federal 17gr ballistic tip. And both blowouts were the CCI. Go figure!
You make me want to keep on with the HMR! I can always go back and forth between it and 22mag! Yeah, thats the ticket! Thanks for the encouragement, Brian!:bthumb:
I know these guns and the 22 mag that used are much different due to the bolt weight but wanted to let you know i found that kidd spring to be total junk. My rifle would feed well to to the lightness of the spring nearing the end of its travel to close the bolt. I ate a recoil buffer in one outing and that has never happened before. I thru it away and installed a xtra power wolfe spring and all was well again. Id like to try an even stiffer spring if those ones you had are stiffer yet?
We have been using SelectFire factory spring/.035, med aftermarket/.040 and heavy aftermarket/.045 springs. The heavy is too heavy. The bolt barely opens and closes and stovepipes are the order of the day.
Brian is using the medium main spring and +10% KID guide rod spring with success. His bolt is heavy with the addition of mallory metal where mine is not. I have tried SF and med weights with some success, but did not try adding the KID (or any other guide rod spring) swaps into the mix.
We are in the neighborhood of 10~11 oz bolt mass from a stock SF bolt at 7.2oz.
The Wolfe is a heavy power hammer spring, correct? I might have to try one. The hammer spring in my Power Custom TG is shimmed 1/8" as of now.
I mainly use 17 hmr but i have a 22 mag brl as well because i didnt expect the 17 to work. Its on a 10/22 mag reciever. The spring i mention above is the wolfe extra power recoil spring for the 10/22 mag. The kidd extra power was way too light , i think its xtra power for a 22 long rifle.
My rifle run above 99% function ... now ! Took $$$ and 2 years of fiddling to make it right but i love it. Mind you with the new 22 mag rounds now doing 2350 fps i wouldnt be too upset it i had to go to 22 mag.
My rifle run above 99% function ... now ! Took $$$ and 2 years of fiddling to make it right but i love it. Mind you with the new 22 mag rounds now doing 2350 fps i wouldnt be too upset it i had to go to 22 mag.
Your spring is on it's way. I was thinking, if you made your handle out of mallory, and put mallory in your bolt, you could get your mass over 350 grams. But the bolt and spring combo will probably do it. Actually, you may want to put in the 10% spring and the .040 spring and see if it works that way before you mod the bolt.
I think I will try the +10% with a piece of .040 spring. I think the max length with my long nose follower is 6-3/4. Close to your 6-1/2" so worth a try.
Your spring is on it's way. I was thinking, if you made your handle out of mallory, and put mallory in your bolt, you could get your mass over 350 grams. But the bolt and spring combo will probably do it. Actually, you may want to put in the 10% spring and the .040 spring and see if it works that way before you mod the bolt.
Your right, but VQ is the only company making them,and they have much bigger pockets than we do. They are expensive, but I think the VQ's work pretty good, or at least I haven't heard anyone complain about them. Actually...I think Excel arms make one, but I have heard bad things about them. Either way, working it out yourself can be a challenge.
How much difference is there in weight between where you guys are now and the tungsten ruger bolt? Its too bad razor wasnt able to make the bolt tungsteb , seems thats where the key lies. Was it just too costly?
From what I gather, tungsten bolts will all fail eventually, and yes they would have to be more expensive than steel. OMR weighed a factory Ruger Magnum Tungsten bolt, it is 413 grams, the Select Fire is 203 grams. But the S.F. bolt is made from hardened steel and won't crack...ever. So that is the challenge of the build, stronger, lighter, more durable vs. heavier, more brittle, eventual failure.
Now if there was an abundance of Tungsten bolts available, and you could just buy a new one when yours cracked, that would still be the way to go. But that's not the case, from what I gather, they are hard to find. So if you have a Magnum and your bolt cracks, your pretty much s.o.l.
Just got back from Palm Springs and had a couple things waiting for me. First off, my GM 20" blue/fluted 22WMR barrel arrived. Always speedy service from the Green Mountain folks!
Next, a gift from my RFC pal Brian/stukpedal. KID +10% guide rod spring...and a spent cannon cartridge! Man is that some heavy artillery!
Thanks Brian, gonna give that a try!:bthumb:
Going to machine up a spacer next week since its a 77/22 barrel and mod a v-block to fit.
Got to shoot a few rounds today with the 77/22 GM barrel in 22WMR. Was kinda worried b/c the chamfer looked really big like in the GM barrel issues thread! No problems, no double rimmed/mushroomed cartridges.
Made a shim and spacer for the barrel and modded the v-block. Basically shoots well and reasonably reliably. Load, shoot, reload, shoot. Actually shot well enough-without fear of explosions-to sight in the scope.
Spent brass about 95% flat, no blowouts with only 4 FTF...all Winchester Dynapoint cheapie ammo. Does not like the blunt, flat nose is my best guess. The brass that was bulged was so slight and with no apparent link to spring rates/length, magazines or ammo. The bulges were so slight compared to 17HMR where the bases were rounded and expanded 2-3x the normal thickness.
Happy that it shoots well and reliably now, but it is quite boring also. Bang, bang, bang, reload. Repeat. Shoots all day like my 22LR Razor. <yawn>
Brian, LMK how that mallory bolt handle goes! I have the itch to continue on my 17HMR trek again!
Robert
Chamfer on unfired barrel
Bolt gouges on Winchester Dynapoint FTF
Flat bases
Nothing goofy around the rim from the large chamfer
20" GM 77/22 22WMR blue fluted barrel
SF Razor Magnum Receiver
Custom 1"/2" Leaded Long Follower = 1oz/28g
Custom Heavy Leaded Bolt Handle Mod #2 = 2.6oz/74g
KID +10% guide rod spring (thanks stukpedal)
4-3/4" med/.040 main spring
SF buffer
Clark Customs TG
1/8" hammer spring spacer
Hogue OM black magnum stock
2.5-10 Tasco AO Varminter scope
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Rimfire Central Firearm Forum
6.4M posts
194K members
Since 2002
A family friendly forum community dedicated to rimfire firearm owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion of all manner of rimfire pistols, rifles, optics, ammo, gunsmithing, customization, reviews, hunting, accessories, classifieds, and more!