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Finished my Razor 10/22 Magnum, but help

16K views 155 replies 15 participants last post by  Guitdolin 
#1 · (Edited)
I got everything put together just fine. It looks great. Went to shoot it for the first time today, and it wouldn't feed from the magazine into the chamber. I tried Ruger 9-shot magazines as well as the 25-round mag in the photo. Bullet starts into the chamber, but it looks like it's angled a little bit too much and it won't feed. The primer back of the case as it comes out of the magazine is lower than the bullet tip - enough lower that the bullet isn't getting a straight shot into the chamber and it jams in the hole. I'm guessing that I drilled the magazine detent hole slightly off somehow. That's the hole that's supposed to be angled slightly. I followed the directions to keep the 8" bit almost touching the receiver while drilling that indention as best I could. My guess is that I didn't get exactly 3 degrees by trying to eyeball it this way.

Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do to get it to feed?

Thanks!

Oh....here's a pic.....

 
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#32 ·
Hey Guitdolin
I'm very early into my Razor magnum project and not yet complete but have been following your thread as it's been going along. I just received my bolt and receiver yesterday so I compared a seated round in mine to your pic, mine, although quite snug, does fit flush. As others have said, check the ammo first and if it's in spec then the bolt probably needs repaced... If you have access to calipers, the rim on my unfired CCI ammo is .288". You might compare that to yours to see if you're off much. Like others have said, I've had great luck with the exact ammo you pictured but ammunition lots can and do sometimes vary. For whatever it's worth my bolt looks very smooth in comparison to your pics... could just be the lighting or maybe you happened to just get the bad one. Either way, I've already been impressed with Select Fire customer service and I doubt Phil will leave you suffering if you figure out its the bolt.
 
#33 ·
Thanks. Yes, I have no doubt about his customer service. I had a problem with the original charging handle (spring came loose and was damaged in shipping), and he shot a replacement out to me immediately. This bolt is a little rough looking, so we'll see....
 
#35 ·
^^Ah, so it is...

I thought I remembered something along those lines. I was just browsing the magnum forum because of the Razor builds. Always nice to follow someone 's advice who has been there already!

Was the diameter off a lot or a little? And agree that Selectfire should modify/replace the "new" bolt.

Robert
 
#42 ·
OK, I've verified a couple of things today.

1. I'm getting old, and my eyesight isn't what it used to be. Probably time to talk to my optometrist about bifocals. I had to pull out a magnifying glass to see what was really going on.

2. There were burrs on every corner and edge inside the pocket and on the extractor, and this is why the bullets would only go part of the way into the pocket earlier.

I deburred every nook and cranny in and around the pocket with a needle file. Now the case will sit down flat.



BUT.......

It still won't go all the way into the pocket, because the pocket just isn't big enough.



I put a .22lr shell into the pocket, and it had a tiny amount of room to spare. But a .22mag case won't fit. I could try to enlarge the pocket with a file, but I'd rather have it done with a little more precision than I can get with a file. I'm going to send it back to Select Fire and have him take another shot at it. I'm also going to ask him to fix the rail on the bottom of the bolt so that it will clear a magazine. I deburred it, but it is still contacting the magazine.

Hopefully, I'll be going through lots of .22mag ammo in short amounts of time after I get it back. :)
 
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#44 ·
Thank you for the offer. I appreciate it. But I'm not in a huge hurry. I'd hate to risk loss or damage of yours anyway. I'm in Abilene, Texas, by the way.

I figure that the bit that was used to mill the pocket on my bolt needed to be changed about 2 bolts earlier. It probably had gotten a little too worn down, and it lost just enough diameter to leave the pocket too small. By all the burrs all over the bolt, I'm guessing it was late Friday afternoon when it was milled. Close to Beer:30, I guess. :D

At lunch today, I sent an email to Phil at Select Fire to the address that he emailed me from last month. It came back undeliverable. ?? Anyway, I went to the Contact Us page on their website and sent the message explaining my problem there. Hopefully I'll get a response. Haven't yet, but I'm sure I will.
 
#45 ·
Phil called me about an hour ago. He suggested that I debur the pocket and polish the entrance to the chamber on the barrel to get it to feed. I explained that I have deburred the pocket, but the case won't fit. He asked me to try a different brand of ammo, which I will do (haven't yet). If that doesn't work, then he suggested I use a Dremel to polish the edge of the pocket to make it easier for a case to slide into place. I told him I'd been hesitant to alter the bolt much, other than deburring it because I didn't want to void any warranty by doing so. He said to use the Dremel and if it still won't work, then he'll fix it.

So I'm gonna do all of that. We'll see. I'll try to open up the entrance to the pocket slightly, but I'm not going to try to use a Dremel to increase the size of the pocket all the way around. There's no way I could do that accurately. I told him that my speculation is that the bit that was used on my bolt was worn just enough to be out of spec. I think he agreed that this could be a possibility. He hadn't seen my pics yet, but I got his new email address and sent them to him. Hopefully that will help him see what I'm dealing with a little better. But he was completely willing to help and fix it if I can't get it working myself. No problems whatsoever. If I can get it working without sending it back to him, that will be the best anyway. I just didn't want to get to a point where he'd tell me, "Sorry, but you screwed it up. It's on you."
 
#48 ·
Thanks for the pics, mosigdude. I thought I'd post this on my thread too, because they speak volumes about the problem I'm having with the bolt hitting the magazine. Great illustration of what the bolt SHOULD look like in order to pass through the magazine without hitting it. You can't push a square peg (like the Razor bolt) through a round hole in the magazine without some impact. Looks like Ruger figured that out, and they rounded off the corner of that rail on the bolt:



Note the rounded corners and edges all along the bolt face. The Razor bolt, as it comes from Select Fire has very sharp corners and edges, and that sharp corner on the bolt that impacts the back of a live round in the magazine probably acts like a firing pin occasionally. Probably what is causing those shells to go off out of battery on stukpedal's Razor.

Here's mosigdude's Razor bolt after he modified it to match the Ruger:



When I talked to Phil Thursday evening, I told him that I'd like him to make this kind of modification to my bolt if I sent it back. He said that he thought it wasn't necessary. He thought what I thought originally - that my magazine was going too far up into the receiver, and that was why the bolt was hitting it. But I told him what others here told me - that the shoulders on the magazine sit on the receiver, and that prevents it from going up into the receiver any further. It's impossible. The problem is that the rail on the Razor bolt is square, and the notches in the Ruger magazine that allow that rail to pass through are round. The bolt needs to be modified to match a Ruger factory bolt so that it can pass through the magazine without hitting it.

I'll be making this correction to my bolt as well as attempting to enlarge the pocket to the correct size to hold a round in proper position.
 
#50 ·
Thanks for posting those pics. One more razor "fix" that I've noticed so far. When I got my Razor magnum receiver and bolt the extractor was broken... not really a big deal, it was a shipping problem and that can't always be controlled, Phil immediately hooked me up and mailed me a new extractor. I initially had great difficulty installing the replacement extractor so I took apart another and dropped that extractor in without issues.

My observations:

The "leg" of the replacement extractor that fits into the hole in the bolt was slightly wider than spec and it would not drop fully into the hole. I probably could have forced it in but I think that would have limited extractor movement during operation. 10 seconds with a dremel on the back end and lightly rounding the edges on the "leg" allowed it to drop in perfectly and the spring and plunger to extend to the proper seated position. My point is, when we buy a ready-to-go firearm we expect the fit and function to be flawless. When we undertake the project ourselves it's our responsibility to make sure the little things are right and do minor fitting where necessary. If you happen to replace an extractor on one of the razor kits, give it a quick once over if fit is even a little off, it will likely save you headaches in the future =)
 
#51 ·
Yep. You have to do all the quality control work yourself with these. Select Fire just does the basic milling, even on the bolts. I had assumed that the bolt would be ready to just drop in and go, but obviously isn't.

Another annoying design feature that I'm dealing with is the bolt handle assembly. The Select Fire version relies on two E-clamps on each end of the rod to hold the spring in place. The E-clamps are bad about coming off, and that releases the spring. I intend to replace this with a rod assembly that uses a more reliable design. Also, the Select Fire bolt handle has all the same very sharp edges and corners that everything else has. It's really uncomfortable. It was annodized without what I'd consider to be a necessary final dressing to remove the sharp corners, so if I dress it now I'll be removing the finish. Gonna have to just be replaced if I want one that will reliably hold the spring in place and that's comfortable and "new looking". Wish I'd known before I bought it.

Does anybody know if the 10/22 LR and the 10/22 Mag rods are the same, or is the Mag version a little longer? I found this one that indicates in the description that it works with both the LR and the Mag. If that's correct, then I'd assume they all would.

http://www.gunkings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16
 
#52 ·
That probably won't be a problem once assembled but it is a PITA while assembling. I did round the corners on my Razor bolt handle for the exact same reason and then hit just the handle (removed from the sprong and rod) in the blast cabinet. This does, however, remove the finish. In my case I dont' mind because once I'm done with everything it's getting a coat of duracoat anyhow. My factory 10/22 and razor bolt handle assemblies look very close in length.
 
#53 ·
Well, I rounded off the rail on the bolt so it will go through the mags without hitting them. I Dremeled and filed the pocket on the bolt face so ammo will fit in place properly. Cycling a mag full of ammo by hand works now.

I went out right at sunset to shoot a few rounds. In every 9-round mag, I'd get a fail to fire 2 or 3 times. Bullet would be fully seated in the chamber, but no mark on the rim. I guess I need to add "firing pin issue" to my list of reasons why I wish I'd just spent a couple hundred more dollars on a rifle that shoots out of the box.

Any ideas on what I need to look for to find the problem that's causing the fail to fires?
 
#57 ·
I had a problem similar to yours. Try checking that the bolt is all the way home by just pushing on the bolt handle. I know this sounds tedious but you're still in the testing and trouble shooting mode. I found that, on occasion, I was getting a fail-to-fire even though the bolt seemed fully closed. The rim had just a hint that something hit it but not hard enough to fire. I started to check the bolt by lightly pushing on the bolt handle before trying to fire a round and found a few times that the bolt was not 100% closed -- I could feel the extractor snap over the rim of the cartridge. I changed to a different magazine and it seemed to clear. I was thinking it might have been caused by bolt drag over that magazine and, with the other problems that are showing up with the bolts, that might be part of the cause.

I have not cleaned up the underside of my Razor bolt -- just the cartridge rim pocket on the bolt face. I just figured that the fail-to-fire problem was that everything is still tight and that one mag was also not broken in. Along with all the problems already found I was thinking maybe I should try a Volquartsen extractor to see if it would slip over the edge of the rim easier. Since you're still in the trouble shooting mode, try pushing lightly on the bolt handle before each shot to see if you feel a click or snap. That tiny amount of open will cause a missfire.
 
#58 ·
22 Boomer, I think that is my problem, after thinking about it. I didn't save any cases, but every time I had a FTF I'd pull the bolt back and the round would still be seated in the chamber. It wouldn't get picked up by the extractor. I'd pull the mag and let the bolt go, and the round would fire.

Maybe the bolt is still impacting the magazines. Maybe the back of the extractor needs polishing. Maybe the entire bolt needs more polishing. Maybe it needs to be lubricated more. I'll try all of that first.
 
#60 ·
22 Boomer, I think that is my problem, after thinking about it. I didn't save any cases, but every time I had a FTF I'd pull the bolt back and the round would still be seated in the chamber. It wouldn't get picked up by the extractor. I'd pull the mag and let the bolt go, and the round would fire.

Maybe the bolt is still impacting the magazines. Maybe the back of the extractor needs polishing. Maybe the entire bolt needs more polishing. Maybe it needs to be lubricated more. I'll try all of that first.
That's a good point about the round not being extracted. I remember not that I had the same problem before I tried pushing on the bolt.
 
#59 ·
Wow, I amazed at this thread. I have had custom work and parts on several firearms and when I buy a part that is defective I expect a refund. Not countless "fixes" to do myself that may or may not work. You don't pay good money for an item only to have to mod it in undetermined ways to get it to work. This seems like a case of not only poor quality control but also poor customer service. I would try my best to get your money back and start over.

Ryan
 
#64 ·
I would agree that my perception was that the bolt was finished and I think that was the intention from the listing on the web page. Part of the problem with being one of the first to play is you also get to be first to have problems and wind up being a little bit of a test dummy. As I understand it OMR has built a few of the Razor Magnums into 17HMRs and I haven't seen any mention of problems so I think some are getting completed without issues. I remember reading that the first "batch" was only 33 units, I'm sure we're into a later batch and maybe something changed a little. I guess it's still inconclusive if stukpedal's blow-out was due to the ridge on the bolt but I think its fairly likely. Hopefully Phil will take note of this and rapidly correct the issue with the bolt. It looks like a little fix would go a long way. Hoping to have most of my pieces gathered mid-week so I can join you in the quest... I think in the meantime I may take a little more metal off that middle rib on the underside of the bolt just to more closely match the ruger factory bolt and to make sure it works well with all magazines.
 
#67 · (Edited)
MAGNUM Receiver Bolt concerns

Gentlemen, I understand that some of you are having difficulties with the bolt assembly. Let me start off by saying that we do our best to produce quality parts at an affordable price. We also understand the frustration that some of you are having. I have dealt with dozens of guys that have scrapped out our basic Razor receivers even with the drill jig. They did this because they lacked experience and didn't understand what they were getting into.

The MAGNUM is advertised as a non first time builders project. We state" Unlike the standard RAZOR receiver this MAGNUM receiver is less forgiving when it comes to building it. You must get all the holes in the right locations. Being close is not going to cut it".

The bolt face is made to accept CCI ammunition and other quality ammunition. YES, as the instructions with every receiver states " Fit each receiver part individually as you work through the project, The instructions say, you may need to fit, tweak things a bit to get them to function, You may need to make adjustments to parts (polish, sanding, lapping and even grinding) The Magnum is not for the beginner." We tell you this in the instructions.

The reason we tell you all this up front is so you understand that this is not a snap together firearm. It is a high precision unit that requires individual fitting of parts just like many firearms built by well known manufactures do. Those parts just don't come off the assembly line and drop in. many are hand fitted and worked to fit and function.

In the future I will open up the bolt face where the shell seats by .005 as this seems to be the biggest concern reported. I will do this only to accept out of spec ammo. You must file polish and fit your individual parts to get a great running rifle. The cleaner and smoother your parts function together the more reliable the rifle.

If our parts are defective or missing I will do my best to rush the customer whatever they need. Customer service is very important us. Please understand that the bolts are of very high quality material and go through many machining processes. You will need to polish and tweak things into shape as we can only do so much. Remember these are 80% kits, I challenge anyone to deliver a better 80% kit of the same quality we manufacture ours to for the cost. I also challenge anyone who has built another manufactures 80% kit to hav eit go together with the easy that ours go together. Most kits are ball busters and require every part to be modified in one way or another.

Now getting to fixing the problems:
1. remove all sharp edges on the bolts with a Dremel tool and polishing compound
2. Radius the barrel hole opening with a polishing wheel and compound at high RPM's. This will help the round slide into the chamber better. Don't be afraid to create a .030 feed lip at the bottom of the hole so the bullet can make a smooth transition into the barrel hole.
3. Polish the edges of the extractor claw on top, bottom and sides. (leave the tip alone), the round sometimes gets caught on the extractor claw coming out of the magazine. Polish the sides up so the primer area of the round slips easily past the extractor claw and into the face of the bolt
4. Use the correct ammunition (CCI fits well in the bolt) polish down the radius edges on the face of the bolt where the round seats.
5. Magazine position and barrel hole position must be exact. Being a few thousands off can make a huge difference in the rifles ability to cycle rounds correctly.
6. Remember, it takes time to break the rifle in. Once it is cycling correctly give in a few hundred rounds to break it self in.
7. Some factory magazines can have very rough casting edges. You may want to polish the inside of the feed lips that hold the rounds down.

There are over 150 well functioning MAGNUM receivers out there. Every week I get a call from a new builder who tells me about how much they enjoy shooting their new MAGNUM rifle. That tells me they are working just like the one I built for myself from the exact same parts we sell. It needed a little work but functions just fine after fitting everything and completing the tweaking and polishing.

Select fire will work with our customers and assist with parts in any way we can to help our customer finish their projects within the law.

Respectfully,

Phil
Select Fire Sales
 
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#69 ·
Phil, thanks for chiming in on the subject, and thanks for building this kit. But, your website clearly states that the receiver is 80%, and the bolt is complete. Like others here, I have almost as much time in making the completed bolt work properly as I do in the receiver. I have enjoyed the project, and I'm confident that I can make it work. But I'm also thankful for this forum, as sharing experience with these guys has helped me a lot. I would like for you to consider beveling the 90* edge on the bottom of the bolt, as some of us have had problems with that edge gouging the mag.
 
#70 ·
Phil, thanks for your response here. The ideas on the fixes for the bolt are helpful. I am hoping that polishing the back of the extractor is the last piece of my puzzle. I'll try that in a day or two, and I'll report back here.

I think your description here of the bolt needing polishing and fitting is accurate. If the description on the website were worded that way, I would have still ordered the kit. I wouldn't have misunderstood what would be needed to get the bolt functioning. The only difference would have been my expectations. I'll get it going, and I'll be happy with the rifle. I was just expecting to be emptying magazines after drilling the receiver and assembling the rifle. I'll get there though.

As I told you on the phone, this is my first kit rifle build. But I'm fairly experienced with building lots of other things and working with all kinds of tools. I'm confident that I drilled the receiver accurately. Your jig makes it pretty hard to mess that up. All the holes line up perfectly with the jig when I put the jig back on the receiver, so that isn't my problem. Just gotta get the bolt fully fitted and polished.
 
#71 ·
One more suggestion that comes to mind as an add-on and, based on conversations with Phil and also with OMR, seems worthy of note. The kit was desiged as a 22 WMR kit and the 17 HMR has a bit more zip on the recoil end... which, all else being equal, is going to move the bolt a little faster. In an email, Phil suggested that the 17 HRM builders add 1/3 of a second recoil spring to the stack and then fire the gun, we should then work backwards, trimming a few coils off the spring at a time until the bolt cycles reliably. OMR suggested working from the other end, adding a half inch of spring at a time until it operates reliably. It doesn't sound like any of us are at that point yet but that might help send the bolt home a little harder on the few "no fires" that we speculated weren't engaging the extractor. Also in the long run I think we'll save some wear and tear on everything if the bolt isn't slamming into the rear of the receiver any harder than it has to. Hoping to join you guys in the shooting game in the next couple days!
 
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