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Opinions on a T/C Hawkin .50 Cal as a first BP rifle?

4K views 27 replies 15 participants last post by  Gabby-Bill 
#1 ·
BP Newbie here. I have been shooting a Uberti and Ruger Old Army .44 round ball pistols for the past year. I don't shoot them every time I go to the range, but I enjoy the basic nature of these revolvers. I would like to partner them with a rifle -- a traditional style cap-fired rifle -- but am lost in the number of choices facing a purchaser. Feels like when I was buying my first rifle all over again. Not a bad problem, but there is an "information overload" quality to the experience.

I bid on -- and lost -- a Gunbroker T/C Hawkin .45 rifle, which seemed like a good first choice. But having lost that auction, I am looking at all possibilities.

The purpose is target shooting at 50 and 100 yards, so accuracy is a must, but iron sights would be OK, even preferable. I'm not totally opposed to an in-line model, but if the rifle recommended is an in-line model, I want it to be reliable and ok to use with balls rather than only conical sabots (don't understand yet why it would necessarily be one or the other). I am thinking about getting into casting at some point, although that is, admittedly, several years down the line.

The budget here is sub-$1000 but a "best buy" at a fraction of that would be welcome. For instance, I see that there are new Hawkins in .50 cal for around $400 at Bud's and at Midway and a Kentucky Traditions .50 cal for about $30 less. I don't think my woodworking "skills" are up to a kit.

Also: any insight into why .45 rifles are so scarce? Is there a great accuracy advantage to the .50 cal slug, or is it a "hunting knock-down power" sort of thing?
 
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#2 ·
A T/C Hawken is a great choice. In Lines were designed to get around the rules for muzzle loading hunts. They are no different than using a Ruger #1 except they take a little longer to load. Technology for advancement of mankind is one thing, but in Lines are technology to get around rules. If you like traditional muzzle loaders, the T/C models are very good.
 
#3 ·
A little advice from someone that doesn't have a clue...

Watch twist rate. I have three BP rifles and one has a 1-48 twist and two 1-66 twist. I prefer shooting balls and the 1-48 stinks at that. Both 1-66 rifles do a very good job giving tight groups. I think the 1-48 may be compromise twist rate for maxi-balls.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Ah! Answered my own question. Looks like Green Mountain makes 'em. Ouch, though, on price, compared to the price of the firearm. :eek:
On the upside, I could get a .45 barrel with a 1/60 twist and standardize on ball size between rifle and pistol. My head is spinning a bit here.
Any accuracy disadvantage from the .45 as opposed to .50 cal? I find myself wondering why there are so many current offerings in .50 and almost non in .45 . . .???

[Edit: " I called the folks at Track of the Wolf and they set me straight about that. No way those .457 balls for the Ruger Old Army are going down the Hawkin .450 barrel with a patch. "]

[Further Edit: the guy I spoke with at Track of the Wolf also said that he had seen 1:48 twist barrels do well with round ball, and some not so good. They do sell Green Mountain replacement barrels, including a .50 cal in 1:66, which he said would be for a "round ball only rig." His advice about the factory 1:48 barrel? "Try it and see."]
 
#7 ·
I always had a Hawkin on my list as well . . . My initial M/L purchase was a T/C Renegade percussion in 54 caliber which was very reliable and shot very well using pillow tickling patched balls out to 100 yards. I bought a Cabelas Hawkin knock off which I returned as it would not give consistent ignition. I'm not sure one can buy a new T/C Hawkin as the last I was aware they were only available from the T/C Custom Shop (Fox Ridge Outfitters) and they are no longer in business. I agree with M2HB the T/C Hawkin is a great choice and there are some used ones available on the auction sites.

I have one of the original Remington 700 ML 50 caliber which I switched over to use a 209 primer so I could use to BlackHorn powder. It is also very accurate out to 100 yards (my testing length for M/L) but I tend to use a sabot with Barnes or Harvestor 250+/- grain bullets.

Can't help you on the 45 caliber question as all my M/L rifles are either 50 or 54's. :confused:

Here is a review on the newer inlines just for additional information - but totally understand the desire to stay with the older percussion cap style. :bthumb: I still have my Renegade and have no plans to get rid of it. :t

https://myhuntingear.com/best-muzzleloader-hunters-reviews/
 
#8 ·
I think a TC Hawken is a great way to start traditional BP, assuming you want something to shoot and are not trying to get the most authentic Hawken reproduction. I've had one in both 50 and 45 and no difference in accuracy when you found the right loads for each. Just that the 50 has always been more popular in the TC Hawken.

There was a time when you could pick up these TC Hawkens for a song when in-lines became the darling of the late black powder hunting season crowd. I remember our local shops even refusing to take them on trade, for a time, because demand was so low. Interest seems to be coming back, though, so a good mint TC Hawken on the market will now attract attention.
 
#9 ·
TC Hawkin is a very good quality bp but not a true, period correct rendition of a plains rifle if that is important. Stick to 50cal. for many reasons, you'll thank me later. The 48" twist is too fast for patched balls, you'll need at least 66". At one time, Lyman made a much more accurate rendition of a period correct Plains rifle. Now if you're talking Kentucky rifle, 45cal. or smaller is the order of the day.
 
#10 ·
I could get a .45 barrel with a 1/60 twist and standardize on ball size between rifle and pistol.
Nope. The revolver uses a .451 ball, and the rifle uses .445 (to make room for the patch).

The original muskets used in the very early colonial days were large bore (.62-.75), but gave way to the .45 or so in the "Golden Age" rifles.

When the West was opened two new animals appeared (bison and grizzlies) requiring more power. So the .50-.58s came into more use for the plains rifles.

Both .45 and .50 can be very accurate with the right load, and both kill deer size animals equally well (from experience).
 
#11 ·
Yeah, I should correct that in the post above. I called the folks at Track of the Wolf and they set me straight about that. No way those .457 balls for the Ruger Old Army are going down the Hawkin .450 barrel with a patch. I learned a lot today.
 
#12 ·
There are still good deals to be found on T/C muzzle loaders. I have a few Hawkens and a Renegade. They are all excellent quality. I stick with the factory built rifles to insure that I’m getting good quality. The most difficult part in getting a used one is finding one that had been cleaned properly after every use.
 
#13 ·
Hawken

Carried a TC Hawken for lots of miles. Was a way more accurate than I could shoot. Had a few no fires on rainy days with regular caps but changed over to a Hot Shot nipple. Slow to reload but went boom every time. I shot a .45 caliber saboted 300 grain Hornaday XTP. Deadly and would shoot clover leafs at 100 yards if I kept the gun cleaned properly. Did I say CLEAN?
Just in case you ask, I did harvest a buck or two with it.
A little humor, last deer I shot with it was a nice buck that a dad gum aggravating Beagle was trailing , yes I hate dogs that run deer. I had decided to climb down out of the tree stand and "squirt the dirt". Here comes the buck and peeks out from behind a big tree at about 75 yards. Gently reached over and picked up the Hawken. All I could see was his head and about half his neck, pow and he was DRT.

Finished task at hand.
By the way nice Hawkens are bringing a premium price!
 
#16 ·
I have two TC's, a 54 cal and a 36 cal Seneca. The 54 has a 1 in 48 rifling twist that does shoot round balls well out to about 75 yards. I've not shot it at distances much further than that. The Seneca I don't know the twist but it is a short range rifle and will keepem in a squirrels head size group out to 30 yards. I like the
TC's but I have others that cost a lot more but don't shoot any better. Both of my TC's were bought in the mid to late 80's. They are good guns.
 
#17 · (Edited)
All the old T/C muzzle loaders are selling for cheap because 99% of the buyers want the most effective deer rifle the state regulations will allow. Those are great quality guns. I am speaking from first hand experience on this. I think that makes 100% consensus, which has to be a first on RFC!

If I was buying a muzzle loader today with 1,000 budget I would look at the Lyman line. These run maybe $500-700 ball park? They are more authentic than the old TC line. The big TC adjustable sights work very well, but; they dont look right. T/C was best will bullets. The Lyman have a slow twist for balls. Some will. I never had a Lyman. I am saying, this is the brand I would look at today. Oh, I see Lyman was already mentioned. I am 3rd on that.

I would stay away from Pedersoli. The quality for price is not there. Again, from experience.

A really neat gun was the TC 12 ga muzzle loader. Some even had a choke. Mine is open. It works and a lot of fun for hunting. You said target shooting, so slow twist with round balls and real black powder is your deal.

As for bigger is better, a 50 caliber round ball maybe lighter than a 45 maxi ball. I am pretty sure. Balls are traditional and easy to work with.
 
#19 ·
A .50 TC Hawken would be an excellent first muzzleloading rifle. The reason the .45's are scarce is because they stopped making them long before they stopped making the .50 and in fewer quantities. Below is a pic of my .45 and .50 TC Hawken rifles. I also built a .54 Lyman Great Plains Rifle from a kit and it is an excellent choice also. Whichever way you choose to go, enjoy sitting in your recliner with your rifle watching "Jeremiah Johnson." :D
 

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#20 ·
I had the T/C Hawkin out at the range last week. 100 grains of Pyrodex FFG under a .50 cal. lead round ball. Accuracy was about a three inch group at 50 yards off a benchrest. In general, it was fun to shoot. I haven't tried any slugs in the Hawkin yet, although I have some to test out on the next range trip. A 1:60 Green Mountain bbl for round ball is available at Track of the Wolff (I think) for about what I paid for the whole rifle. :)
 
#23 ·
I had the T/C Hawkin out at the range last week. 100 grains of Pyrodex FFG under a .50 cal. lead round ball. Accuracy was about a three inch group at 50 yards off a benchrest.
I'm not sure about Pyrodex,, BUT with black powder the 100 grains is too much for round ball in the 1/48 twist barrel. Most shot better groups than that with 70 grains 2f under the round ball.
 
#24 ·
That's super helpful! I am feeling my way with this stuff. I had hoped to use black powder that I made last week in the rifle, but my texture was too fine. I'll try 70 grains of Pyrodex next time out. Cleanup was a breeze. I removed the barrel, stood it in a corner of the shower and poured a kettle of boiling water down the muzzle. Then a bronze brush, a couple of dry patches and some Remoil to coat the bore. I have a 20 lines-per-inch screen now to have another go at powder production. The first (finer) batch of BP will go in a Uberti 44 cal revolver.
 
#27 ·
A lot of us experienced black powder shooters use a mixture of equal parts 90 or 91% rubbing alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, and oil soap for cleaning. Over time, water can leave residual moisture in the bore which can promote rusting. Alcohol evaporates and reduces the residual moisture. Also remember to run oil or grease patches down the bore after drying.
More Hawken or "plains" type rifles are made in .50 and larger cal because they are better suited for hunting bigger critters like elk and bear. That was the advantage it had over the eastern longrifle, which was originally made in anywhere from about 28 to 45 cal. Smaller calibers and lighter powder charges actually do give better accuracy, although the 50 and larger cal rifles do give more versitility.
 
#25 ·
Thompson Centers

A few years ago, when inlines were all the rage, nice TC Hawkens and Renegades could be had for $150 or $200 in my area. But now, when everyone knows they are not making any more, the prices have gone up quite a bit. And most of those have crusty, questionable bores.
 
#26 ·
BP Newbie here. I have been shooting a Uberti and Ruger Old Army .44 round ball pistols for the past year. I don't shoot them every time I go to the range, but I enjoy the basic nature of these revolvers. I would like to partner them with a rifle -- a traditional style cap-fired rifle -- but am lost in the number of choices facing a purchaser. Feels like when I was buying my first rifle all over again. Not a bad problem, but there is an "information overload" quality to the experience.

I bid on -- and lost -- a Gunbroker T/C Hawkin .45 rifle, which seemed like a good first choice. But having lost that auction, I am looking at all possibilities.

The purpose is target shooting at 50 and 100 yards, so accuracy is a must, but iron sights would be OK, even preferable. I'm not totally opposed to an in-line model, but if the rifle recommended is an in-line model, I want it to be reliable and ok to use with balls rather than only conical sabots (don't understand yet why it would necessarily be one or the other). I am thinking about getting into casting at some point, although that is, admittedly, several years down the line.

The budget here is sub-$1000 but a "best buy" at a fraction of that would be welcome. For instance, I see that there are new Hawkins in .50 cal for around $400 at Bud's and at Midway and a Kentucky Traditions .50 cal for about $30 less. I don't think my woodworking "skills" are up to a kit.

Also: any insight into why .45 rifles are so scarce? Is there a great accuracy advantage to the .50 cal slug, or is it a "hunting knock-down power" sort of thing?
A Hawken would be a great choice. It is one of the most popular black powder side lock rifles in use. I have been shooting a flintlock .50 cal T/C Hawken in competition for 30+ years and also have a .54 caplock Hawken for hunting. .50 cal is the most common. The Hawken rifle was originally developed by gunsmiths Samuel and Jacob Hawken in St. Louis, Missouri. They started their gunsmithing business around 1807 or so. They designed it to be able to handle heavier powder charges for the bigger western critters and to be easier to load on horseback than the eastern longrifles were. You should be able to get a good used one for $200-$400. Thompson/Center is probably the most common brand but CVA and Traditions make good ones too. When you find a Hawken that you like I would recommend that you find a local black powder club to help you learn to load, shoot, and clean it properly and safely. I probably should warn you (from personal experience) that black powder is very highly addictive, so you will likely have way too much fun! It can cause you to want to dress funny and primitive camp on occasion if you aren't careful!
I am in the central Virginia area and my black powder club shoots every third Saturday in Prince George Co., so if you are in the area sometime you are welcome to shoot with us. We are always glad to teach new shooters. Feel free to e-mail me at ironwing@netzero.net for help and advice. I have been shooting black powder since 1982.
 
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