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The Jaia Challenge

5K views 63 replies 23 participants last post by  Pat McCoy 
#1 ·
A few months ago, I bought some ammo off Gunbroker. It included 5 boxes of Federal AM22 that had obviously been stored pretty poorly. The brass has a lot of dark tarnish splotches and little dents. Some bullets are loose or bent over a little, and some have the lube flaking off. In short, this ammo is everything Jaia loves to see - except for one thing.

After shooting 4.5 boxes (325/box), I have not had one single misfire.

So this ammo seems ideal to accept a challenge Jaia put forth. He has said that mishandling rimfire ammo will knock primer out of the rim and cause misfires. He suggested that dropping ammo from a couple feet should do it.

Okay - Challenge Accepted!!!



I have taken 100 rounds of this fairly crappy ammo and divided it half. 50 rounds were placed in a box that keeps rounds separated, and the other 50 rounds were left in "inferior bulk packaging". Then this was placed in a "typical" shipping box with "typical" packing material.



The box was then taped closed with Scotch tape (not package tape). Then to make sure the mishandling was extreme enough, I set it atop a 8.5 ft tall shipping container and knocked it off.



After falling 8.5 ft onto concrete, the tape keeping the box closed tore thru.



I can guarantee you, some priming mix is knocked into the powder of many of these 100 rounds. The question is: How many misfires will result from this abusive ammo handling?

I will take this ammo to the range Wednesday and tally first hit successes, multiple hit (3 max) successes, and "dud" rounds for each group of 50.

Place your bets now! (Results will be posted Thursday.)
 
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#34 ·
The box landing flat or on a corner will make a difference. If landing on a corner the crushing of the corner of the box has a cushioning effect, somewhat similar to the front end of a modern car crushing when hitting an immovable concrete abutment thus protecting its contents.
Location of the contents to the box corner taking the direct hit might make a difference also.
variables
 
#35 ·
It is what it is..when i get it seems like the rule for me, I don't anal-yze it much, just shoot it:D

For some reason it doesn't all shoot the same:)



pipestone
 
#36 ·
zukiphile said:
Also, remember the jiggling paint can mixers at the hardware store when you were a lad? Maybe a well sealed bulk box stuck on one of those would simulate a whole day on a UPS truck.
You are correct that adding more mass to the box will have no effect on the impact felt by individual cartridges in the "drop test". The cement will receive more abuse, but that's about all.

I only have 80 rounds left in this final box of poorly stored AM22 that has already been thru UPS's handing (at least once). So here's my idea for a "vibration test".

I'll take 30 rounds and set them aside for a "control" (ie. what a "pop" sounds like). Then I'll leave the other 50 in the box designed for holding 325 rounds and wrap it up in a blanket. I'll put the blanket (tied closed) into the drier and tumble it on "air dry" for 5 minutes. That should create a lot of small impacts and vibration on all 50 rounds. Then we'll see if the accumulative effect of these small impacts is worse, the same, or less than one single (very) hard impact.

The results will again be determined by sound since nobody seems to know someone near me with a chrono. I go to the range on Wednesdays, so I have until then to modify my plan if anyone has a better idea for a final test.

Looking forward to reading Jaia's replies from the ammo makers!
 
#38 ·
I'll take 30 rounds and set them aside for a "control" (ie. what a "pop" sounds like). Then I'll leave the other 50 in the box designed for holding 325 rounds and wrap it up in a blanket. I'll put the blanket (tied closed) into the drier and tumble it on "air dry" for 5 minutes. That should create a lot of small impacts and vibration on all 50 rounds. Then we'll see if the accumulative effect of these small impacts is worse, the same, or less than one single (very) hard impact.
Okey Dokey then, in case you need a new one!
https://www.appliancecenternoco.com/products/Maytag/may/med6630hc.html



Nolan
 
#41 ·
Now this is interesting ;)

In his book "Gunshot Wounds" Vincent Di Maio describes various experiments where ammunition was heated in ovens. He says that .22 long rifle cartridges detonate at an average of 275F, .38 Special at 290F and 12 gauge shotgun shells at 387F.

Average consumer drier temps run 125-135F.

Just FYI,

Frank
 
#43 · (Edited)
Questions asked:

1-Will rough handling during shipping, affect rimfire ignition?
2-Can rough handling affect muzzle velocities?
3-Can rough handling affect accuracy?
4-Will primer adhesion be affected by impacts or jarring during shipping?

Reply from Eley

michelem@eleyammunition.com

8:06 AM (56 minutes ago)

All of our boxes undergo strict Impact drop tests and Stack tests to ensure that they are safe during transit and storage.
This is indicated by the UN number on the boxes provided by the HSE and approved ultimately by the VCA ( vehicle certification authority).
All of our product is also tested to ensure it is not mass explodable, again ensuring it is safe to handle and ship.

We would not recommend rough handling of the product, and the warning labels on the outer boxes do indicate that the loads should be treated with care.
If you are receiving damaged boxes this should be addressed with the hauler for resolution.

In terms of handling causing performance issues of the ammunition,
unless the cartridges have been damaged they should not be affected.
Without more detail or photos it is difficult to advise further.

Best regards,

Michele Makucevich
ELEY Key Account Manager
Direct: 325-268-5004
Mobile: 401-714-3668
 
#46 · (Edited)
Never enough to keep my mind busy. :eek:
I need extraneous information to prevent boredom at the office.
Otherwise I start annoying the folks that have to work with me. :rolleyes:

I have an opinion regarding rough handling of rimfire cartridges,
based on my minor experiment with dropping a package of Armscor 22lr.
Asking what the manufacturers have to say is just being thorough. ;)
 
#53 · (Edited)
The questions:

Will rough handling during shipping, affect rimfire ignition?
Can rough handling affect muzzle velocities?
Can rough handling affect accuracy?
Will primer adhesion be affected by impacts or jarring during shipping?

Reply regarding RWS rimfire ammo

Austin Cook <austin@anschutznorthamerica.com>

1:53 PM (48 minutes ago)

To answer your questions in order

1. No, for it to affect ignition the ammo would be almost destroyed to the point you wouldn't want to put it in your rifle.
2. In theory rough handling could affect MV if the bullet were set back or unseated, but in reality it would go back to the
same situation as above. The ammo would almost be destroyed and you wouldn't use it.
3. If the projectiles are dinged/dented/shaved. Absolutely. Likewise if the cases have dents it will affect accuracy.
4. Primer adhesion will not be affected by any form of shipping. If the rounds come destroyed and powder everywhere,
you could take the empty case and fire it and the primer would still ignite.

Best Regards,
Austin Cook
 
#54 ·
More Results In

Interesting replies from the ammo companies so far. Not sure how much abuse Eley's "testing" involves, but it seems to be more than RWS.

Anyway, the results are in for my "drier tumbled" AM22. All 50 rounds fired on a single strike. But there was another unanticipated occurrence.

Only a couple of rounds seemed to be any louder or stronger than "normal".
About 10-12 rounds had some bright burning sparks incorporated in the muzzle blast.

Combined with my earlier results, it seems that both - dropping and vibrating ammo can cause some priming to detach from the case. Dropping results in priming shattering into fine particles that add power to the charge. Vibrating results mostly in priming cracking into bigger chunks that continue to burn as it gets propelled down the bore.

Still don't have any evidence that rough handling can result in failures to fire, but it remains "plausible" for a small percentage of abused ammo.

Thanks for sparking my curiosity Jaia. I may have to start dropping all the weak ammo that I want to run in "strong ammo only" guns - like my AR-7.
 
#56 ·
TE, found the empties from my first drop test.
Plastic bag on the bottom shelf of the work bench.
Couldn't obtain images of the interior of the brass at that time.
New borescope might let me see inside, try it this weekend.

Still waiting on replies from Lapua and CCI.
 
#57 ·
My 5mm Teslong borescope won't fit inside a 22lr brass. :(

Need a 3.9mm to fit.

Playing with the zoom of my Android phone camera might do the job.
I can see bare spots in the rims of the empty brass where the primer is missing.

Figuring out how to document it will occupy my rained out Saturday. :D
 
#58 · (Edited)
After several hours and an unbelievable number of attempts,
me and my less than capable hands finally obtained some images.
I tried all sorts of methods to snap the images, and my offhand skills
are just as bad with a camera as a pistol. :( :D

I persevered and built a platform that held the camera/phone at a fixed height.
Allowed the camera to focus and the flash to illuminate the interior of the brass.
Allowed me to touch the snap button without moving the phone and clear images obtained.
3 plus hours of rainy day filled...yes I'm that easily entertained. :rolleyes:



The blackened brass were from testing my soldering pencil to ignite primers for my weighing project.









Second row, third column, above pic, missing primer in rim
First row, second column, below, same cartridge at different angle, no primer in rim.
Other pics indicate partial loss of primer from sides, bottom and portions of rim.
Firing pin impact at the areas of the rim with missing primer would likely result in ftf.
Rotate the cartridge to another position, it would impact primer and ignite.
I've had that happen quite a few times.



I see missing primer material in several of the images, a couple from the rims.
Some the chunks knocked loose from the center of the brass, leaving primer in the rim.
Others the primer is all intact. It was a good way to keep me out of trouble on a rain day. :t

The original discussion...

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1191747

Primer is missing from the rim.
Was it a problem caused at the factory?
Poor chemistry causing weak or no adhesion?
Was it the result of a single 3 foot fall from the kitchen counter?
Unknown. Missing primer in the rim means no ignition. It happens. :(
 
#59 ·
Reply from Cody at CCI
I bet he's beginning to think I have nothing better to do than ask questions...
....and he wouldn't be wrong. :D

cciexpert cciexpert at VistaOutdoor.com <cciexpert.VistaOutdoor.com@email.cci-ammunition.com>

Mon, Nov 8, 4:58 PM (2 days ago)

With experiments and through real world testing we have not seen any of the above effected by mishandling
unless the ammunition is broke free from the box and then damaged any other way at that point by bouncing or rolling freely from that point.

Thanks,

Cody B./Technical Service Rep.

CCI/Speer/Alliant
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(866)286-7436
 
#61 ·
cciexpert cciexpert at VistaOutdoor.com <cciexpert.VistaOutdoor.com@email.cci-ammunition.com>

Mon, Nov 8, 4:58 PM (2 days ago)

With experiments and through(thorough) real world testing we have not seen any of the above effected(affected) by mishandling
unless the ammunition is broke free from the box and then damaged any other way at that point by bouncing or rolling freely from that point.

Thanks,

Cody B./Technical Service Rep.

CCI/Speer/Alliant
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(866)286-7436
Cody's a poor speller, improper word handler, and perhaps a child not left behind in school: corrections noted in the quote in parentheses.
If I believed Cody I'd be ready for the nursing home, but least he answered you Jala.
 
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