Do you think the Low DOugh challenge should be opened up to rifles other than 10/22s? - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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View Poll Results: Should the GMCfixer's Low Dough Challenge include rifles other than Ruger 10/22s?
Yes 25 62.50%
No 15 37.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 03-20-2006, 11:31 PM
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Do you think the Low DOugh challenge should be opened up to rifles other than 10/22s?



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Hey Folks!

You might have seen the thread and poll for the Low DOugh challenge where I'm asking if folks think a Super Stocker class should be added. Well I also decided that maybe allowing other than Ruger 10/22s in the Low Dough challenge might be a good idea. I know there are a number of folks with Super Stockers that are not 10/22s that might want to get in on the fun. Keep in mind the challenge would still be 22lr only. Tell me what you think.

Dave Z
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  #2  
Old 03-20-2006, 11:55 PM
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Seems like a good idea to me. I'd like to see what people can come up with for the budget, IIRC of $300.

Paul
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  #3  
Old 03-21-2006, 12:34 AM
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I voted yes to this, but I can already see what's going to happen: eventually 10/22's will get phased out because they simply aren't competitive. The guy who puts $500 into a 10/22 will get smoked by the guy with $500 to spend on a CZ or an old Annie.

I think, because of the limits of 10/22's, we should begin our own classes specifically for us. Sorry to say, but ol' reliable just can't hang. There needs to be a way for the rules to get everyone on an even playing field; the equipment in our hobby is too varied for some of it to be competitive against other equipment - even if there were a money limit. It should be an equipment limit.

Unfortunately, I'm a huge hypocrite, because I also believe in fewer classes and segregations, because it promotes inactivity and limits involvement. It's simple math: the fewer classes you have, the more competitors you'll have in each one.
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  #4  
Old 03-21-2006, 12:44 AM
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well, if the SS people will be included, there are a few mod 60's, a 597, etc, but no exotic guns there. basically your "worked" over ruger. thought the lo-dough had a limit on the initial cost of the gun ?? if so, wouldn't that exclude all the hi-tech, cost-wise guns ??








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Old 03-21-2006, 12:48 AM
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Low Dough

I like the idea of letting other rifles paricipate in the Low Dough challenge as long as they follow the same rules. I have a mod 60 that will fit nicely in the Low Dough Challenge.

As for Low Dough 10/22's not being competitive with other rifles, I think that's hog wash. Look at the combined 25 yards results for some of the USBR e-mail matches. There are Kimbers, 40x's, 52's, Cooper's, Suhl's, and Annie's sitting below the scores shooters have posted with 10/22's. I have a Low Dough 10/22 that consistantly whips guns that cost four times as much. I'm not saying that a stock carbine can compete with the higher dollar bolt guns. They can't. But with tight budget and a little elbow grease, a 10/22 can become a real shooter. Take a look at the January 25 yard scores.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...4144&highlight

Last edited by SQUAWSACH; 03-21-2006 at 12:54 AM. Reason: link
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  #6  
Old 03-21-2006, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonFencer
Seems like a good idea to me. I'd like to see what people can come up with for the budget, IIRC of $300.

Paul
if your "IIRC" of $300 holds then yes, go for it. if any exotic breeds pop up then they shold be in a diff class, maybe cost - wise. think its only fair.
just my .22 cents

but would be up to dave z as it is his baby.








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  #7  
Old 03-21-2006, 01:59 AM
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Squawsatch, I agree with you, and I don't. Maybe at 25 yards, the 10/22 can hold up against those guns, but I assure you, at that range, those better rifles haven't even begun to stretch their legs. And if it were me with a 10/22 against all those Coopers, CZ's, Kimbers, and Annies, I know *I'd* be worried!

See, having a money value to a challenge in and of itself already arranges for unfairness. Allow me to explain: In racing jetskis, if we were given a budget of $1000, you'd have to really buckle down and only get the essentials that give the best results for the dollar. However, I am a pro engine builder; therefore, I can pimp out the motor, pump, impeller, exhaust, and steering before I ever spend a dollar. And I can waste my $1000 on one really exotic item that'll put me a light year ahead of any other fool on the starting line. Racing used to be like that, and it estranged the "little guy" that didn't own a marine racing shop or two-stroke factory.

Back to guns: What if I can't headspace a bolt, chamber or crown a barrel, work a trigger, float and bed a barrel, and otherwise do any of the jobs that would cost about $500 at a gunsmith? This alone already puts Sawdust and Squasatch's (sorry to single you guys out) guns ahead of mine before they ever get more than $100 invested!

So how do you fix that, make things equal, and keep costs down at the same time? Ya gotta make limits and rules! In racing, we called it a "stock class", where certain things just aren't allowed, no matter what it cost you. It was equipment and modification limiting/restricted, and dictated how each machine would qualify per class. And in the end, it kept costs down for the "little guy" and the "big guy" at the same time, as well as keeping them on an even playing field.

Sounds like I'm bashing the whole concept of "Low Dough", doesn't it? In a way, I guess I am. I think, as I stated earlier, it already creates big competitive voids that are unavoidable. IMO, making specific rules to allow the different types of rifles in the "Low Dough" challenge would make more sense. Again, allow me to reference racing: In 1997, the AMA (American Motorcyclist's Association) allowed 4-strokes to race alongside 2-strokes; but they knew that the same set of rules wouldn't exactly apply, so there were different fuel, displacement, tire, and weight restrictions for those machines than were currently in place for the 2-strokes.

Still wanna keep costs low and allow the widest selection of competitors and equipment? Get a budget, sure, but limit it: No bolt headspacing, scopes under $100, no trigger jobs, etc; but a 10/22 can have that stuff. See where I'm going?
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  #8  
Old 03-21-2006, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusB
Still wanna keep costs low and allow the widest selection of competitors and equipment? Get a budget, sure, but limit it: No bolt headspacing, scopes under $100, no trigger jobs, etc; but a 10/22 can have that stuff. See where I'm going?
Yeah, you're headed the same direction as NASCAR.... try to make them all run the same speed so when we wreck, it's a big one .

How about a "bone stock" semi-auto class... weight rule, scope limit, that's it!! 'Course you won't see many 10/22s, but hey, that would be fair. Probably mostly Classics, 597s and 60s but the same rules would apply to everyone.

As to the 10/22s scoring up there with the others as Squawsach mentioned, you put 50 of them against 1 of each of the other brands and you're bound to have some good scores.... even a blind hog will find an acorn once in a while.
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  #9  
Old 03-21-2006, 07:34 AM
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i voted no. my Biathlon basic would be considerd a lo do gun even with including the price of the gun. i paid $240.00 over the counter and i have a $55.00 scope that came with rings. and without tuning of any kind it almost outshoots my Clark barreled full on custom 10/22. glad to see that it didn't i'd be pissed to have over a grand in it and it wouldn't at least hold it's own. now my goal is to make it shoot better than the 10/22 lots of elbow grease and some bedding coumpound ought to get me well on the way. if you do the lo do and let other guns compeate you have to put a price cap on the initial cost of the gun. after all i'll have about. $70.00 in mine and should be able to hold my own. hows that for lo do? keep
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2006, 09:06 AM
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Just a few rambling thoughts.

gmcfixers initial idea of a Low Dough Challenge met with a lot of enthusiasm and the format was discussed, rediscussed, refined and then generally agreed on before the first shot was fired. It would appear that there would be a reasonably large number of participants. That was not the case when it came time to post scores. Most mounths the turnout could be counted on one hand. I participated most months and loved it, it was the emphasis for building my tricked out Polar Bear. But where did so many of the others go?

Now we have the SuperStock class of guns which is not nearly as well defined as the Low Dough guns. The loose definition of a SuperStock was done on purpose to avoid a lenghty list of detailed rules and specifications. While this may have worked for most people for some it was an incentive to bicker and challenge even the basic concepts. That would be the first obsticle to just including SuperStocks in the Low Dough Challenge. Tons of discussion and bickering and not much hope of shooting.

The e-mail matches seem to be the only place where people actually enjoy competitive shooting, really do shoot and talk about shooting. No constant complaining about the rules. However, I think the key is "rules" and enough classes that about anyone can find a place where they think they can be competitive. Both Low Dough and SuperStock guns already have two or three catagories in which they can compete IF THEY WANT TO.

The real challenge is trying to motivate more shooters to come out and enjoy some form of competition. The real problem is that to many people want a situation in which they are virtually guaranted a win and would rather bicker over the uneveness of the rules than come out and shoot. To try and combine the Low Dough and SuperStock guns into a single shooting competition in its self would be a challenge. Might even need a new forum and full time staffing. About the closest you could do is to draw up an extensive detailed set of rules that tries to be as fair as possible and then offer them as a new class of competition. I doubt that you could ever combine the two and be successful any other way.

As for other guns in general being included in the Low Dough Challenge, I like the idea but don't think you could ever define it well enough to make enough people happy for it to be worth the effort.

I really don't mean to sound negative, its just that I hate to see someone put a lot of effort into a good idea that I don't think stands much of a chance of success and will create a mountain heartburn for them.

Good luck

sawdust

Last edited by sawdust; 03-21-2006 at 09:18 AM.
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  #11  
Old 03-21-2006, 08:29 PM
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BTW folks the idea of allowing other than 10/22s would be strictly for the SSers and not the regular LD guns, and it has yet to be determained as to any rules and how to keep it low dough with folks wanting to use Kimbers, Suhls and such. This is all just intial ideas.

Dave Z
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  #12  
Old 03-21-2006, 08:48 PM
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classes

I couldn't even shoot my sporter hunting Kimber 82 against other sporters because of the ridiculous "$500 limit" in sporter class, have to shoot heads up against people using $4,000 custom target rifles with barrel tuners and 36X scopes. The whole shebang has gotten far out of hand


Sounds like a good argement for another class. The guy with a $180 rifle may not want to shoot against your Kimber. The classes are intended to level the playing field and get more shooters to post scores by avoiding what you mentioned in the above statement.
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  #13  
Old 03-21-2006, 09:44 PM
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Phil

I think that the effort that has been made in the e-mail matches has been to encourage more shooters to participate in some kind of competition by providing enough classes to give them a reasonable expectation of being successful. Hence all of the different classes. This doesn't promote a high level of competetion but hopefull prompts a little shooting other than tin cans.

Your suggestion for two classes is just 180 degrees in the other direction. It stiffles any thought of mass participation and becomes an equipment and dollar race. There is nothing wrong with that if you want to exclude most shooters. Now, I think you have demonstrated this by not wanting to shoot your Kimber, high dollar rifle to a number of people, against the really high dollar guns. Yet you seem to want to have the top end equipment in Sporter and not be limited.

I'm not meaning to fuss about your suggestion or your gun, just kind of using it to help point out the difficulty of trying to encourage participation while providing some incentive to improve and achieve a higher level. I wish I had a magic answer but I don't so I'll just throw in my two cents and wish the folks good luck who are trying to get more people involved.

sawdust
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  #14  
Old 03-21-2006, 10:21 PM
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This is a interesting discussion, how about a entry level lowdough cold stone stock classic sport bolt action class?. Rifle must be over 50 years old, total purchase price of rifle and scope (or peeps) combined must be under $100. (or rifle may be inherited) Have a Remington model 34 and a 341 that both fit the bill, both shoot one hole groups on the 50 foot indoor range with CCI blazers when I do my part, we can even schedule matches one a month for when the moon is full, or am I making it too complex? olypenn22
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2006, 10:49 PM
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olypemm22

My Mossberg is just about old enough and has peep sights but I rechambered it RATS and my Remington 582 is to young and darn, I have a scope on it. Maybe we could just shoot in Sporter class with the Coopers and Kimbers.

sawdust
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