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Old 02-23-2021, 11:44 AM
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Appleseed Rimfire KD 200yrds



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So I was fortunate enough to make it to Appleseed Rimfire KD in Ramseur NC Feb 20-21st. This was the full 200yrd rimfire KD ( there is a 100yrd KD also offered. First off special thanks to all volunteers who continuously take time out of their own schedules and away from life to help coordinate & show up and make these events what they are. I know most people come for the shooting and the marksmanship but the history and stories really help tie everything together. The volunteers with Appleseed continue to bring their great attitudes, knowledge and willingness to go out of their way to make sure everyone has a safe positive environment and gets the most from every event. I have yet to be to a single event where personal equipment or a loaner rifle hasnít been handed out to help a student or multiple students. Shooters from all disciplines and every experience level attend these events with all ages. Every event has been the best I believe it could. The instructors give their all to make these events as safe as possible and maximize instruction / help so everyone has the right concepts and positive experience.

Iím going to outline the rest from my own observations/ takeaways hopefully they will give more information and inspire more people to attend and have a better idea of what to expect and get the most out of your next event.

The Rimfire KD is the next step from the normal 25m/25yrd Appleseed. If you have already been to regular Appleseed event and have a good idea of the concepts and understand (and have practiced ) positional shooting this is a great next step. While having already qualified Rifleman on a normal 25m/25yrd event isnít required it will be very helpful but you may find making rifleman at a Rimfire KD event is actually easier (Iíll try to expand more later). You should absolutely know your own equipment running a .22lr to 200yrds is not the easiest as I found out the night before while trying to prepare (always the best idea (sarcasm)). Make sure that your scope has enough internal adjustment / elevation. TIP: If possible see if you can get out to a range and gather dope (not required) it will help greatly. This next one should be obvious but the ammo you choose is much more important while better ammo definitely helps it is only one of many factors. If you keep changing ammo or types your zero and adjustments at range are much more affected. Someone with a decent ammo (does not have to be HV) and consistency will likely do as well as anyone with the most expensive. Remember Appleseed events do not focus or require precision to make rifleman. KD events are based (in the black) hits count so it wonít matter if you hit in the V ring or the black it counts the same.

You should really know your equipment before this type of event (I fall into this). Know your rifle/ scope/ sights if possible read the manuals!! This will help not only you but will also save valuable time for everyone else on the line, possibly getting in more AQTís. Know what malfunctions can and will occur whether it be ammo related, magazine related or just rifle related and how to clear them safely. Appleseed instructors bring a host of knowledge, tools and many lend out their own equipment and can point you in a direction to get the most from what you have. If you have any questions save your self time and ask for help before events, knowing your own equipment helps get you the most from every event. Due to a multitude of various issues many people brought multiple rifles for this event (recommended but definitely not needed) several people ended up changing out rifles on day two because of this while everyone else were shooting AQTs they were re Ė sighting in and getting dope on the changed rifles.

Sling Use: You need one!! Get one!!! Period!!
One of the things that makes Appleseed and is highly stressed at 25m/yrd events is just how important the sling is and can be. If anything a KD event will tell you just that x10. Because Appleseed is based around positional shooting and not from a rest, bags, bench tri-pod etc. you absolutely need a sling. On day one for sight in both guys on the left and right were consistently dropping shots from all positions. As soon as we took lunch some extra swivels, QD mounts and G.I slings from our generous shoot boss and other instructors were loaned out and immediately both of the shot groups tightened immediately at every distance. Iím not saying you canít make a rifleman score without a sling but if you have one it absolutely increases your chances. Why else would they focus so much time on proper sling use and your fundamentals if it wasnít so important. Get a sling, lookup how to use it and spend time getting comfortable in the proper positions if possible. *IT WORKS*


25m/yrd to 200yrd Rimfire KD thoughts:
If you score high on 25 or are at least confident in your positional ability and breaking the shot/ calling your shots I think a KD is for you. Because of the target and time allowance. I think it is a decent bit easier to make Rifleman at a KD then regular event. While bolt actions have a much harder time making the time I honestly donít see an issue at a KD. There is ample amounts of time to get NPOA multiple times per shot in every stage.

Last my own experience/ issues.
I was able to make this event on a few weeks notice due to a change in schedule with a buddy not being able to make a 100yrd KD this coming weekend and did not read the fine print was thinking it was a 100yrd KD the whole time. Friday the day before I grabbed my 10/22 to make sure I was good to go in normal fashion (last minute) hit the range to grab quick dope hopefully to just get an idea and immediately realized I didnít have enough internal elevation to make 150yrds let alone 200 and would be using hold overs (I would have been good to go for 100yrd KD). The farthest Iíve shot a 22 is 100yrds prior to this event. I went home and was fortunate enough to have another scope to work with and changed the night before the only saving grace for me is I wrote down the last torque specs and had marked placement on the rail and was actually on at 50yrds for the first sight in. I should have paid more attention gotten out prior to verify before the event. Day one was great and getting the dope out to 200yrds with so many other .22 variations was great to see the difference in rifles/ ammo/ barrel length/ equipment. While not surprised it was even more amazing to see and experience just how important the basics are. How much more the steady hold factors, trigger control, NPOA come into play. The majority of my shooting is off of a front bag or barricade at intermediate range (Rarely a .22lrÖ)Iím great at holdovers and horrible at come ups so this was fantastic to crush me and force me to dial up and down doing a better job of tracking my dope. Day two was a great morning in ranging targets and then shooting AQTs. The most interesting thing to me from both days was just how much difference there was in my groups from 150-200yrds. Both the guy on my left and myself were pretty consistently shooting tighter groups at 200yrds than at 150 even when both are shot prone. Getting frustrated in this it started to really bother me I was constantly dropping one or 2 shots at 150yrd the only shots I was missing. I spent the last few AQTs on my breath making sure I was taking my time as soon as I was getting all 10rds on the 150 I would drop one @ 200. I honestly have no idea why but I know it was me and I probably just hit my limits of diminishing return. This weekend was absolutely excellent and canít wait to get another on the books. I was able to get valuable data/dope for my rifle/ ammo at distances Iíve never shot with it and further cement and prove just how much the basics are absolutely critical / required. I was able to shoot a number of 48ís and one 49 putting the fundamentals to work on every AQT. A note: If your rifle is not set up or having mag/ scope whatever issue you will constantly be chasing down gremlins and you wonít be able to take advantage of being able to just focus on what changes start with you as the shooter. I am definitely inspired to make another event and would really like to attend one with a bolt action. It may just be me but I would greatly struggle on a 25yrd event with a bolt where as the KD I believe is a bit more generous with the time and more easily allow room for a bolt action with little difference between the two. Lastly my own issue I need to work more with my 10/22 and remember to enforce keeping a safe rifle. On day two I must have left the safety off 3 times after grounding the rifle, mag out -bolt back-chamber flag in no issues but kept forgetting to push the safety which is the most basic and my dumbass kept forgetting .

Sorry for lack of pics I haveÖalong with the targets and size reference. Feel free to ask any questions and Iíll do my best to chime in as well as other amazing people on this forum! Beer/ Nickle/ Quarters for size reference 25m Target/ 100yrd target/ 200yrd target.
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Old 02-23-2021, 11:46 PM
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Congrats! Sounds like a good time was had by all.
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Old 02-24-2021, 08:21 PM
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Congratulations on earning your Rimfire KD patch and Distinguished patch. I've not shot a 200 yard rimfire KD yet, though I have shot a good amount of 200 yard rimfire shooting on my own range.

What are each of the different targets and at what yards are they posted at? I'm assuming, 50, 100, 150 and 200?

Never mind, I enlarged that target, I see that's the one to use at all yardages.....I'm going to buy some, thanks!

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Old 03-02-2021, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGhillemohr View Post
Congratulations on earning your Rimfire KD patch and Distinguished patch. I've not shot a 200 yard rimfire KD yet, though I have shot a good amount of 200 yard rimfire shooting on my own range.

What are each of the different targets and at what yards are they posted at? I'm assuming, 50, 100, 150 and 200?

Never mind, I enlarged that target, I see that's the one to use at all yardages.....I'm going to buy some, thanks!
I can't wait to see your thoughts on a rimfire KD. I would suspect you will have no problems making distinguished or perfect. After the 1st AQT everything seemed to align and I had little trouble getting 43s and up. Other than remembering to dial I seemed to have a much easier time on the KD than the 25m. It is possible it is just me but finding NPOA at distance is much easier for me than up close. Will be curious if that holds true on the next event.
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Old 03-02-2021, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PisgahProject View Post
I can't wait to see your thoughts on a rimfire KD. I would suspect you will have no problems making distinguished or perfect. After the 1st AQT everything seemed to align and I had little trouble getting 43s and up. Other than remembering to dial I seemed to have a much easier time on the KD than the 25m. It is possible it is just me but finding NPOA at distance is much easier for me than up close. Will be curious if that holds true on the next event.
You only have one target per distance at KD events. So, you don't have to find NPOA as many times. So, in some ways KD is easier. However, distance and environmental factors make KD more challenging in other ways. As far as being easier to FIND NPOA at distance, I haven't experienced that and would probably disagree. NPOA has no relationship to vision, so there is no reason that it would matter whether the target was 4 inches or 4 miles. What does make a difference is the substrate on which you are shooting (sand vs. concrete). In my experience, finding and maintaining NPOA is more difficult on a soft substrate like mud or sand than a hard substrate like concrete (as long as it doesn't hurt). YMMV
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Old 03-02-2021, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rwadley View Post
You only have one target per distance at KD events. So, you don't have to find NPOA as many times. So, in some ways KD is easier. However, distance and environmental factors make KD more challenging in other ways. As far as being easier to FIND NPOA at distance, I haven't experienced that and would probably disagree. NPOA has no relationship to vision, so there is no reason that it would matter whether the target was 4 inches or 4 miles. What does make a difference is the substrate on which you are shooting (sand vs. concrete). In my experience, finding and maintaining NPOA is more difficult on a soft substrate like mud or sand than a hard substrate like concrete (as long as it doesn't hurt). YMMV
You are correct. I'm likely lacking or missing something in my thought but I'm going to agree with you but disagree on the NPOA at distance only in the context of the 25m to 200yrd (I will double-check later this week). The target size is smaller on the 25m than the 200yrd: Standing for instance is my weak spot I almost always drop a shot standing at 25m, at 50yrds for the AQT I didn't miss a single one and rarely dropped one out of the V-ring. NPOA at a distance if it was the same target size would be a real challenge. During stages 2 & 3 you are only doing a mag change and not changing targets so you would have more time by only shooting one target. I still think NPOA is easier on a KD perhaps only due to the size of the target. Even a slightly smaller target at distance would affect your NPOA?? I will point out and fully agree at distance your NPOA is easier to see and you absolutely know when you're off.

So help me out: If your NPOA is on and you apply 6 steps to making the shot if you are using your applied ballistics/data your NPOA is no different at range?

Bonus question: At this KD 3 of us, several times (myself more than a few times) had better groups at 200 than the 150, both are shot prone the only difference is a mag change at 150. Target is obviously the same size. I shot both on 12x so other than the mag change and elevation adjustment should be very similar. Regarding time I took roughly the same as I can't see at 150 let alone 200 so I have to call my shots even more than the 150. Normally one's groups would enlarge over a distance not shrink. Any thoughts?
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Old 03-02-2021, 08:42 PM
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I received my targets and proceeded to work on my come ups for each of the ranges required. The rifle used, was one of my CZ 452 UL's with 28.5 inch barrel with Leupold scope. Once zero's were confirmed, I shot ten for each range, but at this time, I didn't run the timer. I had good results, I hope we have a rimfire KD in Arkansas soon.

As far as my thoughts on NPOA at 25 or on KD are concerned, NPOA is important no matter the distance, but no doubt is magnified at distance versus the reduced course, if your position is not good. Also, as stated, not having to change NPOA for multiple targets is also an advantage.

At my first full distance KD with centerfire, I also found it is easier to do well on the KD than the reduced course. Throw in a lot of wind though, that can change!

I shot High Power for a number of years before shooting any KD Appleseed, can't say KD is particularly difficult. Just have to know your come ups and read wind.
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Old 03-02-2021, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MacGhillemohr View Post
As far as my thoughts on NPOA at 25 or on KD are concerned, NPOA is important no matter the distance, but no doubt is magnified at distance versus the reduced course, if your position is not good. Also, as stated, not having to change NPOA for multiple targets is also an advantage.

At my first full distance KD with centerfire, I also found it is easier to do well on the KD than the reduced course. Throw in a lot of wind though, that can change!
Exactly this! I don't think NPOA changes, but I think the bigger targets are simply easier to get a point of reference on to align your NPOA.

If your NPOA is good at 25 then 200 shouldn't be an issue. If it isn't then the 200 will certainly let you know it.
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Old 03-03-2021, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PisgahProject View Post
Exactly this! I don't think NPOA changes, but I think the bigger targets are simply easier to get a point of reference on to align your NPOA.

If your NPOA is good at 25 then 200 shouldn't be an issue. If it isn't then the 200 will certainly let you know it.
Well, they are a little bigger, but not by much. For a 100 yard RKD, the 25 yard target is exactly the same size as the 25 meter target on a reduced (regular) AQT. For the 200 yard RKD, the 50 yard target is 1/4 inch larger than twice the width of the simulated 100 yard target on the reduced 25 meter target. I would say that a 9% difference in size is pretty insignificant for the 100 yard RKD. Perhaps the 19% percent increase in size of the 200 yard RKD targets are a little more significant (but I don't think it would make a TON of difference. My guess is that you did better on the 200 yard targets because the target seems smaller (Aim small, miss small) and perhaps it was less stressful because the time limit is greater (even though you took the same amount of time).

While distance and size of targets makes no difference on true NPOA, it does make a difference when finding and checking your NPOA (this has more to do with shifting than anything). If you recall, we can close our eyes to find NPOA, relax and breathe, and then move our body around our pivot point to coincide our NPOA with the target. If you are aiming at a small target, you will likely have to shift several times (which should be closer to your actual NPOA).
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