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  #46  
Old 08-13-2021, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzy View Post
It’s due to having a clean bore. Since I listened to a national champ rimfire shooter, and leave my bores dirty, my first shot is where my last one was. Even if it was a year later. Leave the lube and lead in the bore. It’s not going to hurt anything other than your accuracy.
This way of thinking is antiquated. It's origins are nearly 100 years old. It's been superseded by better advice for decades.

There may have been a time or an era, beginning in the late 1920s and early 1930s when many .22LR shooters left their bores fouled and did not clean them regularly. This was when non-corrosive priming for .22LR ammo became available. The ammo it replaced had corrosive priming, which required careful cleaning after each use, a cleaning that was more rigorous than running through the bore a couple of wet and dry patches If the detritus from the corrosive primed ammo was left in the barrel, it could seriously damage it and impair its accuracy.

Indeed advertising for this new ammo often stressed that, unlike with the use of previous ammos, bores no longer required cleaning after each use. In a time when access to bore cleaning equipment was not what it is today, .22LR shooters welcomed and embraced non-corrosive ammo that didn't necessarily require cleaning to avoid damage. This was the origin of the "it's not necessary to clean your rimfire barrel" way of thinking.

But times have changed, and so has the advice of the vast majority of national champion shooters and other serious rimfire competitors. Now, and for many decades, the advice is to clean a .22LR bore because the best accuracy is related to barrels that get cleaned with regularity.

Shooters will continue to foul their clean barrels with fresh fouling. They don't like to let them remain unfired for a protracted period of time because after a while the fouling dries and this changed condition of the fouling can often lead to the next shot being off POA.
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  #47  
Old 08-13-2021, 08:33 AM
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Ya mean like this https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1228591

Tried to tell him it was rim drag , but hes gonna sand down his bolt .
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  #48  
Old 08-13-2021, 08:41 AM
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First Round Flyer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_M View Post
Just a thought (but not nearly as interesting as some of the discussions so far);

I have two magazines for my 10/22, that always throw a first shot flyer. They don't appear to damage the bullet or cartridge at all, but after I numbered all my mags and logged results of the individual mags, the flyers (at least the ones I'm not responsible for) were identified, and reproducible.

I just stopped using those mags. I keep telling myself I'll work on them and figure out the problem, but honestly, I have plenty that don't do it.

Dave

Don’t load them up to max.
I only put 5 rounds in mine even though they hold 10.

I bet the ones that cause first round fliers , if you only load 9 or less it will quit doing it.


"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"

Last edited by PEASHOOTER67; 08-13-2021 at 10:38 AM.
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  #49  
Old 08-13-2021, 09:36 AM
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Thanks 2many

That's exactly what I imagined taking place, rim drag...perfect description.



That groove in the drive bands would change the way the bullet heel expands (obturates).
As the bullet exits the muzzle the uneven bullet heel would cause uneven pressure release
forcing the bullet to tip off the center line of the bore and cause a stray.
With that groove always being in the same spot when chambered, it would be a predictable stray.

Last edited by jaia; 08-13-2021 at 09:39 AM.
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  #50  
Old 08-13-2021, 09:52 AM
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For what it's worth and since its free it probably isn't worth much.
Over the years I've tested a lot of Eley Match/Team/10X, Lapua Midas/Center X, Wolf MT and SK STD + and all was fired through a chronograph.

One thing I've noticed is that the first round was always higher in velocity than the other rounds. So much so that I usually discarded that number in the Average speed. This is with a clean Shilen Octagon rifling barrel.

The other thing I noticed is when shooting long range silhouette matches, on practice day it was a clean barrel but on the match day, usually the next morning, the barrel was not cleaned overnight.

We get a warm up period where we can shoot at any and all ranges. I usually start at 200 meters and work backwards to 65 meters. Now the barrel is not clean but is "cold". At 200 meters I always have to aim about 2 inches low to get a hit on the first target and then center from then on all the way back to 65 meters.

Now the match starts and there are always two relays and about 15 to 20 minutes or so between relays. That means the barrel is "cold" by the time I get to shoot each distance. When I get to the 150 meters I have to aim about an 1 1/2 low on the first shot and at 200 meters again I have to aim about 2 inches low for a hit. At 100, 65 and 75 meters the targets are so tall but narrow that the high first shot isn't a problem. I talked with another shooter who is also in the master class and he notices the same thing.

Why is that. He shoots Eley, I shoot Lapua. He has a 40X, I have a custom Anschutz. We live is a semi desert so humidity is around 17% normally. I'm not arguing with jaia but our experience is the first shot is high and that would be contrary to the wet barrel theory.

I've even noticed it a 100 yard group matches. We always have a period when others are still trying to get their rifles zeroed from 50 to 100 yards before time starts for the actual match. I learned that even though I have my rifle zeroed already, I still fire a shot every 30 seconds or so until the actual time starts or sure enough my first shot will be about 1/4 inch high and ruin the rest of the group.

So is it the barrel? Probably not because the first shot flyer is seen by many. I believe the barrel will dictate where that first shot goes and how far it goes. It happens with any ammo so it isn't the ammo. Since in my case, I see it with a barrel that has no lube or crud in it and I see it in a barrel that is lubed and filled with crud but it occurs in either case on the first shot in a cold barrel.

Years ago there was a very well known .22LR benchrest shooter that had a SS barrel and he painted it black so it would hold the heat longer. I don't see anybody doing that today.

Now to make a liar out of myself. Here is a target I posted before. I was fooling around one and shot this target at 50 yards.

Target 13 was a cold clean bore, 14 was next and then 18. Not a flier in the bunch. For the record, I did make a windage adjustment between target 13 and 14 but not 18. So what causes first shot fliers???????????????
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  #51  
Old 08-13-2021, 10:05 AM
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I prefer ya' argue MK.
Especially when you have more experience with rimfire than I do.
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  #52  
Old 08-13-2021, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
For what it's worth and since its free it probably isn't worth much.
Over the years I've tested a lot of Eley Match/Team/10X, Lapua Midas/Center X, Wolf MT and SK STD + and all was fired through a chronograph.

One thing I've noticed is that the first round was always higher in velocity than the other rounds. So much so that I usually discarded that number in the Average speed. This is with a clean Shilen Octagon rifling barrel.

The other thing I noticed is when shooting long range silhouette matches, on practice day it was a clean barrel but on the match day, usually the next morning, the barrel was not cleaned overnight.

We get a warm up period where we can shoot at any and all ranges. I usually start at 200 meters and work backwards to 65 meters. Now the barrel is not clean but is "cold". At 200 meters I always have to aim about 2 inches low to get a hit on the first target and then center from then on all the way back to 65 meters.

Now the match starts and there are always two relays and about 15 to 20 minutes or so between relays. That means the barrel is "cold" by the time I get to shoot each distance. When I get to the 150 meters I have to aim about an 1 1/2 low on the first shot and at 200 meters again I have to aim about 2 inches low for a hit. At 100, 65 and 75 meters the targets are so tall but narrow that the high first shot isn't a problem. I talked with another shooter who is also in the master class and he notices the same thing.

Why is that. He shoots Eley, I shoot Lapua. He has a 40X, I have a custom Anschutz. We live is a semi desert so humidity is around 17% normally. I'm not arguing with jaia but our experience is the first shot is high and that would be contrary to the wet barrel theory.

I've even noticed it a 100 yard group matches. We always have a period when others are still trying to get their rifles zeroed from 50 to 100 yards before time starts for the actual match. I learned that even though I have my rifle zeroed already, I still fire a shot every 30 seconds or so until the actual time starts or sure enough my first shot will be about 1/4 inch high and ruin the rest of the group.

So is it the barrel? Probably not because the first shot flyer is seen by many. I believe the barrel will dictate where that first shot goes and how far it goes. It happens with any ammo so it isn't the ammo. Since in my case, I see it with a barrel that has no lube or crud in it and I see it in a barrel that is lubed and filled with crud but it occurs in either case on the first shot in a cold barrel.

So what causes first shot fliers???????????????
What's consistent is that first shots in a cold bore are high. The reason is increased friction for one of two reasons.

First, when the bore is clean it has no lubrication. When the first bullet is fired, the increased pressure caused by the friction ultimately shows up in a higher MV.

Second, when the bore is fouled but the fouling has dried appreciably due to the passage of time, the first round may have an experience similar to the clean bore, when friction causes an increase in MV.

In both cases, a higher first shot means a higher MV. The higher MV is the result of friction. Having fresh, wet fouling in the bore will avoid this occurrence.
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  #53  
Old 08-13-2021, 12:13 PM
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I have a Rem 281 T that would shoot flyers on the first cold shot every time, no matter if it was cleaned prior or shot dirty. I cleaned and cleaned and still the same. Finally I looked down the barrel with a bore scope and found a carbon ring just forward of the chamber. I tried several cleaners with no results, but ended up using J-B Bore Cleaning Compound and Kroil with VFG Pellets all from Brownells.

Put a few drops of Kroil on the pellets then apply the J-B to the pellets then work that through the barrel back and forth till it is gone. It will be hard to tell when it is gone without a bore scope. It took 50-100 strokes for mine to disappear.

Recently acquired a Sig 9mm that belonged to a SWAT team that had the barrel coated with carbon and metal fouling

A bore scope is the only way I know of actually seeing what is going on inside a barrel.
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  #54  
Old 08-13-2021, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzy
It’s due to having a clean bore. Since I listened to a national champ rimfire shooter, and leave my bores dirty, my first shot is where my last one was. Even if it was a year later. Leave the lube and lead in the bore. It’s not going to hurt anything other than your accuracy.
My personal experience is "cold shooter" is the biggest problem, followed by "clean bore", and then by "cold bore". They all have an effect, but cold bore is by far the smallest issue IME.

It seems to take 15-20 rounds to completely eliminate the "clean bore" inaccuracy when using waxy lubed ammo, and 8-10 rounds with greasy lubed ammo. And it doesn't matter much if the barrel is cold or not until the fouling/lube has been laid down. I too have stopped cleaning the bore after every range trip, and the number of fouling shots needed (with a pre-fouled bore) to have good accuracy has dropped to 0. It still takes a single "warming" shot to get passed the small "cold bore" drift and reach premium accuracy.

I do still inspect the chamber after every range trip and will scrub that area if carbon ring looks to be taking hold. That cleaning usually happens about every third or fourth range trip - depending on how dirty of ammo I've been shooting.
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  #55  
Old 08-13-2021, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
What's consistent is that first shots in a cold bore are high. The reason is increased friction for one of two reasons.

First, when the bore is clean it has no lubrication. When the first bullet is fired, the increased pressure caused by the friction ultimately shows up in a higher MV.

Second, when the bore is fouled but the fouling has dried appreciably due to the passage of time, the first round may have an experience similar to the clean bore, when friction causes an increase in MV.

In both cases, a higher first shot means a higher MV. The higher MV is the result of friction. Having fresh, wet fouling in the bore will avoid this occurrence.
I tend to go with this theory.
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  #56  
Old 08-13-2021, 03:37 PM
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I have a new 457 mtr varmint, every time I go to the range the first shot is 1 & 1/4'' high & 1/2'' right, the rest all land goodly together.
If I don't shoot a half hour or so the first shot is always higher than the rest.
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  #57  
Old 08-13-2021, 04:21 PM
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Heck Jaia, I stress out about damaging the bullet loading the magazines, what the action might do to them is just scary.

I noticed a while back that with my 457, groups from the 5 round mags were measurably better than those using the 10 rounders. Not by alot, but consistent.

I do have a single shot adapter, but I don't shoot as well with it. That's just me though, my positional consistency sucks.

I did find that if I insert the mags (in the 10/22) with the bolt closed, and then rack to chamber a round, it was better than inserting with the bolt locked back and the letting it go forward to chamber the first round.

God I love 22s. Always interesting....

Dave

Last edited by Dave_M; 08-13-2021 at 04:26 PM.
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  #58  
Old 08-13-2021, 04:34 PM
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Well…

Cleaned the rifle throughly and tried again. Same lot of ammo. First round, low left. (Not as bad but still an inch off at least).

Took a 3rd 597 HB along, cold/clean bore, same lot of ammo, no flyer.

Pics to follow…

I’m gonna swap the bolt in this rifle see if the problem follows. That being said, I’ve already spent too much time on a $125.00 rifle!

The range offices love it. ‘How many 22’s do you have?’
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  #59  
Old 08-13-2021, 04:35 PM
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  #60  
Old 08-13-2021, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penage Guy View Post
What's consistent is that first shots in a cold bore are high. The reason is increased friction for one of two reasons.

First, when the bore is clean it has no lubrication. When the first bullet is fired, the increased pressure caused by the friction ultimately shows up in a higher MV.

Second, when the bore is fouled but the fouling has dried appreciably due to the passage of time, the first round may have an experience similar to the clean bore, when friction causes an increase in MV.

In both cases, a higher first shot means a higher MV. The higher MV is the result of friction. Having fresh, wet fouling in the bore will avoid this occurrence.
That makes sense, but what about different barrels throwing the first round flier differently than just high. Could that just be a function of the barrel harmonics. BTW, my rifle throws the first round high whether I have the tuner on or not but I have a very think barrel, .920 cylinder but it is 26 inches long so the sag is .009 inches without the tuner and a bit more with the tuner.
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