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Hämmerli Xesse or Other?

33K views 90 replies 21 participants last post by  LDBennett 
#1 ·
Hi all,

I've been considering getting the Hämmerli Xesse and was wondering what alternatives might be better or what I should know about the Xesse. I currently have a Browning Buckmark Contour, since I was not aware at the time that competition .22lr pistols like the Xesse are exempt from the California roster and can be purchased easily. Don't get me wrong, I like the Buckmark quite a bit and am not a good enough shooter to realize the advantages of a better pistol, but I hope to get there someday. And in the long run, I see the cost of the gun as negligible compared to the cost of ammunition, so I might as well go all out from the start.

I've heard that there were some durability issues with the original Trailside, have these been ironed out with the Xesse? How accurate is the gun (I haven't seen any grouping specs)? What other options might be better, and how are they better?

Thanks in advance!
 
#33 ·
Hey guys! :)

I've been away from bullseye and this site for the past 2 years and recently started getting into 10/22 modding and lo and behold I see this thread revived! Additionally, I had started practicing Bullseye again just a few weeks ago and so I took out my favorite pair...the Trailside Expert and my Ruger MII with Volquartsen barrel. I like them both a LOT and consider them a step below the top stuff, but I'm 100% happy with them.

Both are very reliable and both fire off "bulk" ammo very accurately. The Trailside seems to love Aguila 40gr Subsonic (thank god I managed to get a bunch of bricks during the shortage!) and the Ruger fires everthing, but seems to do very well with Federal Champion in the 525 boxes (which I stockpiled before the shortage...prepper or hoarder mentality).

I consider the Trailside more accurate, but the MKII more dependable. This is because the Aguila SS ammo I'm using actually isn't made for semis; however mine seems to function fine with it almost all of the time...it does seem to be operating close to it's lower recoil limit though, but it shoots so butter smooth. :p

So I would heartily recommend either one of these and do consider them about the same level (trailside & Ruger with Volq barrel and mods).

Here's my 50' practice shooting after almost 2 years not shooting...Trailside is both 2 handed unsupported and Ruger is one hand and then 2 hands - both unsupported. I think it's not bad considering how rusty I am! My one-hand shooting has gotten better recently too.




As a side note, the Trailside hasn't given me any troubles except the last time I was at an NRA sectional...turns out I cleaned it "too well" and despite test firing it 60 rounds prior to the match with 100% function, it had cycling issues during the match. I could've had a great score if I didn't have to put the gun down before firing all the rounds in the first two targets, but before the last target the RSO suggested I try a bit of oil on the slide and that did it! :rolleyes:
 
#35 ·
I think most good target pistols will shoot 20 rounds in the 10 ring, pretty sure all of mine will (From a rest using CCI-SV) However, if that was offhand, it is pretty darn good shooting :bthumb:

The issue for me is which gun I can do it with a single handed hold. Some pistols are easier to shoot accurately that way than others, at least for me.
 
#39 ·
Wow! What a forum! I have been away for a long time but after going to a gunshow today where I "impulse bought" a Sig Trailside Hamerlli, I visited this forum and found this old thread resurrected today! Found out what my Sig was all about since I had never seen one before.
Mine was in the box with the manual and the disk and snap caps and even a little black container of lube. It was also wearing an M8 4X Leupold ER. The only problem I saw, and this was only after I got to the range and was reading the owners manual, was that the barrel extension was missing. However, I found one at Numrich Arms and its on the way. Not sure what its for though.
It shoots as well as my Mark II, III and IV. Its more picky about ammo though. It absolutely hates 36 gr high velocity CCI, but loves Aquila "blue box" 40 gr standard velocity. Naturally it would since I only had one box of that kind. I do however have many other 40 gr standard velocity type to try tomorrow. Looking forward to shooting again. Oh, its a 6 inch and the rear sight doesn't appear to be adjustable.
I read with concern about the trigger guard breaking so I examined mine. Thank the Lord for the excellent write up and picture. Even I could understand it. In the area the arrow was pointing to, there is only a faint casting line. The front of the trigger guard appears to be well up in its slot. Thanks so much for all the great info.
 
#41 · (Edited)
So I may have done this. I have had the Trailside comp gun for over a year. I found a 50rnd used tuned Xeese for a song and a dance. So i picked it up.



One of the differences not mentioned is that the Xeese is supposed to be a sleeved barrel, versus the sig which is not. I have not verified this as yet.

I was tooling up old chicken eggs at 35yds off hand yesterday with Xeese after sighting in the matchdot.

So how does it hold up.

Well I have or have had the following:

2 Volquartsen custom MKII's Both sold
22/45 with 2x leupold Sold
Ruger MKIII Target sold the barrel, put on a Tac Sol pac lite. Dropped in a VQ trigger. Then sold it.
Sig mosquito Sold
Pre Lock Smith 617 10 shot. Still have this. Lovely gun, excellent double action trigger for practice. nicely accurate when worked with. I used to be able to do dime sized groups at 10 yds DA. little more like nickle sized now.
Ruger MKIII hunter with 4x Leupold. Accurate, but not consistently across various standard velocity ammo brands. It will fire them all, but not as consistent as others.
Ruger MkII government target. Traded for Colt officers model 22lr
Colt officers model 22lr. Stupidly accurate and wholesomely smooth trigger.
Ruger MK Government target Threaded for my suppressor. nickle sized groups when the suppressor is off. 50cent piece sized groups when on.
3 Smith and wesson Victories. These are dime sized groups at 10yds. All off hand open sights. Love every one
Beretta 87T superb rolling trigger. It is a joy to shoot. When i shoot it a lot, dime sized groups off hand at 10 yds.
Sig Trailside Competition model. Dime sized groups at 10yds
Smith and Wesson 43 in 22lr. 4inch. Super hard da trigger, lovely single action. Traded off .
Colt Woodsman Target. This is more ammo finicky than most, but with cci standard blue box it ranges just over dime sized some times to way under dime sized groups at 10 yds.
Hi standards. I have had a half dozen of the lower end sport kings, military and b models. while they were all OK, they were never Great. Achieving dime sized groups was never consistent.

What order would i rate them in out of all these? best to least

Hammerli and Sig
Smith 617
Beretta 87T and Smith Victories
Colt woodsman
Colt officers
Ruger MKII MKII VQ pistols
Smith 43
Ruger mkIII MKIII VQ pistol
Sig mosquito
Hi standards
 
#42 ·
"Beretta 87T superb rolling trigger."


I love this description of a trigger system with tons of creep and tons of over travel, that lets the hammer fall at an unknown position in the trigger pull.

I had this trigger system in mine from the factory and I added a over travel limited trigger to help know when the hammer would drop and did a trigger job to minimize the creep. Now it has an acceptable trigger pull!

Sorry, but I have never herd of a rolling trigger. In this case it seems(??) to justify a creepy trigger with lots of over travel.

LDBennett
 
#43 ·
Have you shot many HK P7's? It is the only way i can describe it. While the P7 is striker fired, I always felt like the sear was rolling off each part to break. The Beretta gives me the same feeling.

Now, I will be honest. I don't compete all my time spent with these 22lr is to practice my sight picture and trigger for my Double action/Single action pistols. In this case the beretta 87T suits that very well with a long obtuse rolling trigger. It helps me focus on a clean smooth pull. It is not weighty, Gritty, or have any hitches like many revolvers or cheap 22lr semi autos. It really does allow one to focus on the two main things. Sight picture and Trigger pull.
 
#44 ·
I also don't ever shoot double action so my viewpoint is not the same as yours. My favorite triggers are two stage triggers like you find in olympic rifles and pistols. Any gun I can put one in, I do. My AR's have them!

My Sig Trailside is designed so that through a hidden adjustment (inside the mag well accessed with grips off and from the back) it can be a two stage trigger. Mine is adjusted that way and it is a very good trigger. I suspect (??) the Xesses has the same ability although I have read here that Larrys (the distributor) says the trigger was upgraded (??) when the Xesses was offered. I would bet it has the same adjustment. The adjustment was not documented in the Sig Trailside instruction manual I have.

LDBennett
 
#45 ·
From what i have found the Trailside is a two point adjustment. The Xeese is a 3 point adjustment.

The Trailside was supposed to ship Single stage, but be able to adjust to 2 stage. The xeese shipped 2 stage. I can not confirm this as i purchased both mine used. the trail side is a nice 3lb 2nd stage. The Xeese has a larrys guns trigger, and is listed as 1.5lbs for 0.010 th and 0.75lb for final stage.
 
#46 ·
As I pull through the first stage and then hesitate, the pull level to me is not noticeable. All I feel is the force required to get through the second stage. The numbers you list seem much higher than I would imagine mine is. In fact mine is (just now measured it):

First stage 1 lb 12 ounces
Complet pull through 2 lb 13 ounces
Delta for second stage 1 lb 1 ounce

While your stated numbers are different and Larrys number on the Hammerli XESSES are different do note that the complete pull through on the Hammerli version is 2 lb 4 ounces, a mere 1/2 lb difference.

Now I have owned this Sig Trailside from new in June 2000. It was the first one my Local dealer got. Unfortunately it is the 4 1/2 inch barrel version, as I wanted the longer barrel version, but it has the Ergo grips. I preformed the trigger adjustment myself, as it came adjusted as a single stage. I never measured it as a single stage. I hate guns with lighter triggers and I am not a fan of less than a pound triggers...too easy to get an accidental firing. My older Thompson Contender came with a much less than 2 pound trigger pull and when I use it I have to be really careful.

Triggers are interesting to me and I have actually made a study of them. I pretty much know exactly how most triggers work and what has to be done to make them better thanks to an expensive AGI course I took several years back.

LDBennett
 
#47 ·
So yours is really not that far off from Larry's tuned trigger. Nicely done. The reset on the trigger keeps from bump firing, but I agree .75lbs can be a bit hairy if you are not used to using it.

I just picked the Xeese up yesterday. I will give the two a good comparison shake down over the next few weeks.
 
#48 ·
Not to belabor this topic, but the thing I like about two stage triggers is the safety of them. The entire first stage is moving the sear up to the edge of the shelf on the hammer.That means all that trigger motion is really creep and more importantly sear engagement which is safety. The more creep (sear engagement) the safer the trigger. Then the second stage can be really light like a pound or so. Lets see how your Xesses compares to my old Trailside.

LDBennett
 
#50 · (Edited)
Just a personal comment.

I will again say this is personal and not intended to say one pistol is better than another as I think after a certain point it becomes opinion and not related to fact.

For instance. I have no problem with saying the S&W 41 of old is a nicer pistol than a Target Model Ruger when looking at fit and finish. Is it more accurate? Not in my experience. When $$$ and grip angle come into the picture I have no reason to own a 41.

A few years back I traded for a SIG Trailside and did most of what can be done to one and it was a nice pistol. Nice enough I traded guns I liked for it. Last year I traded it.

In 2002 I finally got the message that it was unlikely I would work again and in 2003 I was approved for SS Disability after, what has to be record, 6 weeks. In fact they paid me 2 years back as that was the farthest they could. My 10/22 was dying (I thought) and I had sold a Ruger MKII and many other guns to keep a roof over my head and something to eat. Deciding I may have to live with what I could then get to get me through the coming years I found a preowned (looked to be unfired other than factory) Ruger "Slabside" KMK678GC with everything including the factory supplied fired case. Later I did my own trigger job on it. I have done nothing to make it more accurate. Barrel, crown, chamber and bolt are all stock. This is how IT shoots:




TEN shot groups. Second group is slightly smaller than the first even though it was shot with cheap Fed 510 and the first with SK Pistol Match! Lest anyone think I am an amazing shot they were both shot from a rest at 30 yds (target says 25 but later we found that our club range had been improperly measured!). Groups were not out of the ordinary for these ammos on the days shot. I have not shot groups since the trigger job and it is possible it might shoot a little better for me now but I can not say that is so.

Remarkedly it has shot some 2" 100 yard groups. Not bad with a 4X scope. Hitting clay bird is a 9 for 10 or 10 for 10 shot thing @ 100 yards. So easy it only gets interesting when you start shooting the pieces left over and it is deadly on Saltine Crackers at 100 also. All from a rest of course. Hitting saltine crackers off hand with any pistol is pretty tough at 100 yards but not impossible. I used to shoot almost as well from sitting with elbows braced on my knees but my spine no longer allows that for very long. Both targets and the 100 yard shooting as well as 200 yard shooting at larger targets have all been witnessed by several RFC Members and they also did well with it. "Brent" was thinking I was some kind of pistol wizard or something when he saw me hit a small freon tank 10 for 10 @ 200. I sat him at my bench and showed him what I was doing and he hit it 8 for 10 the first magazine and 9 for 10 the second mag if memory serves. I should have left him thinking I was a handgun wizard!! Another member here went out and bought the same model pistol after breaking many clays at 100 with mine.:eek::D:bthumb:


Since I was an 11 year old kid in 1963 and my dad bought a Ruger 4" I have always liked the grip angle on these pistols and I shoot them better than a 41 for instance.

While I am sure there are pistols that will shoot better groups. I doubt that there is a better deal for dollars spent. I have now had this pistol for 13 years while others have come and gone. I am quite sure I will own it until my daughter gets it when I leave this rock.:):t
 
#52 ·
The 87T is not a replacement for the 89. It is a design deviation from the plinker Cheetah. The trigger has TONS!! of smooth creep and NO over travel stop. You pull the trigger and you have no indication at all where the hammer might drop. The sear needs a trigger job and the trigger needs an over travel screw adjustment. I modified a 89 trigger to fit and did the trigger job on the sear. Then the trigger pull was very much better.

But what a nightmare to put this bugger back together after the trigger change. It was so complex that I made notes for use in the future.

Then there is the Beretta lies about the weight. An acceptable target gun weighs about 40 ounces. Beretta advertises that but in reality it is closer to 30 ounces. Weight equal steadiness during aiming. I stuck a bigger red dot on it and that helped some. There is a place for weights under the barrel but I have never seen any offered in the US (maybe today???).

I am of the belief that the "T" in the 87T name is for tactical and not target. The trigger is no hindrance when shooting fast at tactical targets. The gun looks more tactical than classical target.

LDBennett
 
#53 · (Edited)
The 87T is not a replacement for the 89. It is a design deviation from the plinker Cheetah. The trigger has TONS!! of smooth creep and NO over travel stop. You pull the trigger and you have no indication at all where the hammer might drop. The sear needs a trigger job and the trigger needs an over travel screw adjustment. I modified a 89 trigger to fit and did the trigger job on the sear. Then the trigger pull was very much better. <edit: Two 1911's built for marvel unit 1 and 2, number 2 first, and number 1 second. Both sold off, 2 because it was not a 1, and 1 because i was offered stupid money>

But what a nightmare to put this bugger back together after the trigger change. It was so complex that I made notes for use in the future.

Then there is the Beretta lies about the weight. An acceptable target gun weighs about 40 ounces. Beretta advertises that but in reality it is closer to 30 ounces. Weight equal steadiness during aiming. I stuck a bigger red dot on it and that helped some. There is a place for weights under the barrel but I have never seen any offered in the US (maybe today???).

I am of the belief that the "T" in the 87T name is for tactical and not target. The trigger is no hindrance when shooting fast at tactical targets. The gun looks more tactical than classical target.

LDBennett
That is selling it a bit thick. The trigger on a 87T is fine, far better than a stock MKII or MKIII. Yes it is a long roll, but the break on mine is clean and crisp. The reset is easy to remember. Calling it a tactical gun does it a great dis-service. Any 22 that can hold dime sized groups at 50ft off hand (with practice) is a bit better than the tactical label you have foisted upon it.

This is my current stable of 22lr pistols.

What is not seen are the 3 VQ pistols i have sold off. Two VQ manufacture, one I assembled out of all VQ parts. 2 ruger MKIII, Two Ruger MKII all tuned with VQ or tac sol parts. Several Smith revolvers, 17, 43 and a Dan Wesson in 22lr with 2,4,6,8 inch full underlug barrels. All of these i have sold off and pared my stable down to those seen in the picture.

You have lauded your trigger knowledge. At the same time you hold in disdain single stage triggers, or those that do not fit your exact likes. You have also admitted that you don't really do any double action trigger practice. I do, I start my range sessions with 300-400 rounds out of my 617 in double action. I follow up usually with 200-300 out of my Smith Victory. Then Usually my Beretta 87 and then the trail side or woodsman. These triggers correlate very nicely to the trigger pulls of their center fire cousins. That trigger time, and sight picture time make one a much better center fire pistol shooter.

I will admit, that if my focus was on 22lr bulls-eye I might focus on a excellent 2 stage European trigger. Then that could be the primary factor as to how good a the revolver or pistol is. However bulls eye style 22lr pistol is relatively tiny niche market in the US. Most folks, use 22lr for plinking. Very few take the time to try and achieve dime sized groups at 25 ft let alone 50ft or even 25yds. Most simply are happy with fist sized groups. On top of that, most people who utilize 22lr for training are doing so for class games like ipsc and are simply happy with 8 inch plate hits. Given all that. A trigger that is better, but equates easily to centerfire guns is a valued thing. Discrediting a gun because of the same is fairy narrow sighted, and completely understandable given your preference in 22lr.
 
#54 ·
DSGrouse:

The 87T is purported by Beretta to be is a semi-auto
target pistol and not a double action revolver. It needs a trigger that is representative of a semi-auto target gun, not one that satisfies a need to practice double action revolver usage. If double action practice is what you desire then practice with a double action revolver not a gun sold to be an accurate semi-auto target gun where precise trigger control give best accuracy results.

But where is double action used to best advantage? In tactical shooting not accurate small group target shooting. Double action revolver shooting is probably more niche than single stage or two stage precision target shooting.

The 87T trigger serves your purposes but not mine or the many other who report here who have modified their 87T with at least an over travel stop in the trigger.

Beretta missed the boat on this gun by a long shot:

It is not the weight Beretta advertises by about 10 ounces light
It is a poor target gun with the trigger provided
It is over priced being priced with some of the better Target pistols when it is based on the Cheetah, the plinker gun.

Having said that, when the trigger is fixed and a bit of weight added via a red dot, it is an accurate target gun equivalent to the price point it sells at. But these mods and additions are not free. To be clear I now like mine.

But if a newby buys one of these expecting a semi-auto target gun they will be disappointed when they compare it to some of the other target style 22 on the market that their buddies own. I point this out to help avoid this disappointment. But someone who just has to have an 87T can buy it, modify the trigger and add a little weight and make a good target 22 pistol out of it. And you can have your double action revolver practice gun right out of the box.

LDBennett
 
#56 ·
Two things:

The BIG advantage (perhaps not to a competitor) is that two stage triggers have tons of sear engagement which is a safe trigger. When single stage triggers are made to have no creep and a light pull, those triggers are on the dangerous side because the sear engagement is so tiny (to eliminate creep).

If "experts" feel practice with a double action trigger is helpful, I would never suggest otherwise. But to sell a semi-auto 22LR target pistol with a crappy trigger that emulates a double action trigger pull is a sin, in my opinion. If it is double action practice a shooter needs then let him practice with a double action revolver. The Beretta 87T cheats a buyer out of an excellent target trigger.

But we all get to choose. A potential purchaser needs to know that this 87T trigger is unlike any other semi-auto target gun trigger. Some will like it, and many others may not.

LDBennett
 
#58 ·
Well, LD and DSG, you have made me want an X Esse now. I nearly purchased one a yar ago from Larry's, but they were backordered and I found a used 208 instead. Then I read some "iffy" reviews and conclused they were a lower end gun:confused:

I did not realize they had a 2 stage trigger (which I really like on my guns which have them). Good thread:bthumb:
 
#59 ·
trigger

I own a Trailside Competition. Was going to throw it away at one point. I took it to a local "gunsmith" (you machinist should quit portraying yourselves as gunsmiths) and he screwed it up TWICE. So, off to Larry's and now has a perfect 2 1/4 lb. trigger-locktited. I've had to get used to the two stage and like it now. My MK II Ruger has a single stage, short roll and I can shoot that trigger better still. Both pistols are very close in accuracy. One costs a lot more than the other. I have several MK II's. Good Shooting.
 
#63 ·
DSGrouse said:

"Calling it a tactical gun does it a great dis-service."

Let me point you to Beretta's own description:

"87 Target: .22 LR Target Pistol for Practical Shooting Matches"

at: http://www.beretta.com/en/87-target/

Practical Shooting Matches use tactical guns, I believe. I don't remember this in much earlier advertising but at least they are honest about it now. Now if we could just get them to give the correct weight of the gun (about 30 ounces vs a claimed 40 ounces).

LDBennett
 
#66 ·
Dear lostheplot

I have shot a trailside which is another name for a exxess.

I found it to be a high quality target pistol, the equal of many in my collection.

If I came across a trailside for 350 bucks, it would be in my collection.

On this forum, I predict that you will get 98 people tell you to purchase the pistol.

The other two?

They gonna tell you to save up for a Pardini/FWB/Benelli/etc.

Ya like the pistol? Its a good price.

Buy it!!!!!

A cranky two thumbs up deal.
 
#67 · (Edited)
If I came across a trailside for 350 bucks, it would be in my collection.

On this forum, I predict that you will get 98 people tell you to purchase the pistol.

The other two?

They gonna tell you to save up for a Pardini/FWB/benelli/etc.

A cranky two thumbs up deal.
I agree with Cranky, only I'd say get it and then save up for the Pardini. Nothing wrong with more than one gun:D

Plus, If you don't like it, I'll buy it from you. A decent gun at a good.price is hard to walk away from. If you don't buy it I'd be interested.
 
#71 ·
When Hammerli re-issued the SIG Trailside as the Xesse a few years back, they changed the trigger and a few other minor things. I only have experience with the Trailside. Without knowing the Xesse, I would be hesitant to recommend it based on my SIG Trailside experience. Everything wrong with my Trailside I fixed but I would not want to buy a new Xesse to find some of the problems remain.

The S&W has a good reputation over the years but more recently there have been reports here of minor quality problems. The pre-1990 guns (highly polished and the most collectable, hence the highest prices) included more hand fitting and polishing. Some say they shoot better (??) but my post 1990 Model 41 is a fine gun. I suspect the latest version are very acceptable guns but at a price point I think a bit too high for what they are.

If you get good versions of either gun then owning either one or both is OK.

Note that not all Model 41 barrels are drilled and tapped for a red dot mount. The Xesse is the same and takes a special mount from Larrys Guns at $170. I believe the top of the Xess barrel has dove tails for mounting rings like used on 22 rifles (??) but the security of the mount may be questionable (??). You can find barrels for the Model 41 that are drilled and tapped and a simple rail can be added. The after market Clark barrel with the integral rail system is another option but that barrel is nearly $400. Also note that on some target guns the red dot or scope has to be removed to do a complete field disassembly for cleaning, sometimes requiring a re-zero. On those guns you have to put up with only a partial cleaning.

So that's the facts. I would recommend a Model 41 with a drilled and tapped barrel in the 5 inch range unless you want to make this gun purchase a potential project. Again, I have no experience with the Xesse (only the Trailside) so I really can't make a knowledgable decision on it.

LDBennett
 
#72 ·
When Hammerli re-issued the SIG Trailside as the Xesse a few years back, they changed the trigger and a few other minor things. I only have experience with the Trailside. Without knowing the Xesse, I would be hesitant to recommend it based on my SIG Trailside experience. Everything wrong with my Trailside I fixed but I would not want to buy a new Xesse to find some of the problems remain.

The S&W has a good reputation over the years but more recently there have been reports here of minor quality problems. The pre-1990 guns (highly polished and the most collectable, hence the highest prices) included more hand fitting and polishing. Some say they shoot better (??) but my post 1990 Model 41 is a fine gun. I suspect the latest version are very acceptable guns but at a price point I think a bit too high for what they are.

If you get good versions of either gun then owning either one or both is OK.

Note that not all Model 41 barrels are drilled and tapped for a red dot mount. The Xesse is the same and takes a special mount from Larrys Guns at $170. I believe the top of the Xess barrel has dove tails for mounting rings like used on 22 rifles (??) but the security of the mount may be questionable (??). You can find barrels for the Model 41 that are drilled and tapped and a simple rail can be added. The after market Clark barrel with the integral rail system is another option but that barrel is nearly $400. Also note that on some target guns the red dot or scope has to be removed to do a complete field disassembly for cleaning, sometimes requiring a re-zero. On those guns you have to put up with only a partial cleaning.

So that's the facts. I would recommend a Model 41 with a drilled and tapped barrel in the 5 inch range unless you want to make this gun purchase a potential project. Again, I have no experience with the Xesse (only the Trailside) so I really can't make a knowledgable decision on it.

LDBennett
Ive just started running into issues like this..I wont be able to spend much over a initial $700-1200 price so unless extra barrels cane with it already those are probably out..Id thought about that with the 41 also..id heard get a older one..BUT this gun will 100% have a red dot on it so...as you said the older ones dont have that newer ones do but are more "iffy".. I thought the Xesse had the mounts built in... maybe I will just end up going with a Volquartsen at least I know they are available in that...ive had a issue finding a nice $1000ish gun that will be nice, hold value relatively well and be red dot mountable.

So many nice guns out there not made anymore like the High Standard Victor,Medalist,Woodsman....but very few with parts availability anymore limit those and newer ones many I like either have NO red dot mount ability OR they are Iffy for what I want..
 
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