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Old 03-25-2013, 01:49 PM
1917-1911M
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Question In Search of the 2 lb P22 trigger.



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This is going to be hard to accomplish. So hard, I went back with a fresh battery to check an old P22. Trigger pull was 2 lb 14 oz. It hadn't been recently cleaned or lubricated. Only the usual spit and polish. I'm sure the springs have softened over time. Still runs 100%



The new gun....it takes 6 oz to 7 oz to pull the trigger against the trigger spring only. Even more as I continue to wind the spring but that is complicated by running into the sear and it's spring. Mine currently takes 1 lb and 10 oz to wind the trigger spring and rotate the sear out of the way of the hammer....no hammer spring installed. This of course is all very smooth. To reduce trigger pull impacted by these springs the trigger bar spring will have to be over wound just a bit to reduce its pressure while still allowing 100% function. Then the sear spring will have to be over wound to weaken it a bit but still function 100% also. Still working on sear and hammer fitment. Have a positive sear at present which is safe but actually presses the hammer rearward a bit before breaking. You can see in the picture above just how much of the sear the hammer hook has caught. That puppy isn't going to slip loose.


Off to get a jewlers loupe so I can see what is going on. These parts are tiny and my eyeballs aren't too good after the big oak limb hit. 2 lb trigger.....looking pretty doubtful You can at least see fitment pretty good on a P22, it isn't hidden with the slide off. You can even remove the left side of the frame for a better look. Can't do this on many pistols. You have to have a jig with the correct size pins for looking at fitment.



I have taken off a bit of the hammer so that is no longer overhangs the sear when the sear if fully seated. Here I have placed the sear up a bit and against the top of the hook on hammer. Positive, Negative or Neutral????? Hard to tell. I need Walther's original engineering drawings. I expect someone over there will post em pretty soon.

I weakened the trigger spring so it now takes 2 oz to pull the trigger just a bit against the trigger spring vs. 7 oz stock. I've also weakened the sear spring just a bit and these two changes dropped trigger pull from 1 lb 10 oz to 1 lb 2 oz.....no hammer spring installed. I then weakened the hammer spring from 8 lbs of pull to cock it by the hammer to 6 lb 10 oz. SA trigger pull dropped from 4 lb 4 oz to 3 lb +/- 1 oz. The 4 lb 4 oz trigger was with polished and lubricated parts too.

There is no trigger creep at all. If the trigger moves the sear...the hammer drops. I'm still not happy with the sear/hammer fitment but in the long run I'm not sure the Rockwell hardness is adequate to maintain whatever fine tune I put on these parts. We will see. Oh, I adjusted the trigger bar spring just a bit too light and get about 20% no DA. I will adjust that next time the pistol is apart. 3 oz of trigger spring pull should put DA back on track. M1911

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 03-25-2013 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:54 PM
1917-1911M
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If anyone has any good information on sear work I would appreciate seeing some pictures or explanations....especially on a set up similar to this or Walther pistols. M1911
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:02 PM
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The only complaint I have with my p22 trigger is the creep. Maybe I set my sights to low so to speak??
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:36 AM
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How about some of you boys and girls measuring your SA trigger pull. Walther says 4 lb stock. That's not what I'm thinking. M1911
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:13 AM
beallj
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Do you have a home-brew way to measure?
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:59 AM
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Water can be added to a jug attached by a string or wire and then weighed on some accurate scales but a Lyman digital pull gauge isn't expensive and locks the weight when the trigger breaks. You can average up to 10 pulls. They will be on sale from time to time as will digital calipers which are $35 or less to begin with. M1911
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:51 PM
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If you extend a line across the face of the cock notch on the stock hammer you would see that it crosses about 1/3 of the way into the hammer pin hole. This created a 103 degree angle between the pivot point of the sear and the hammer. While this is a very safe angle if creates a higher trigger pull. Below I assess and stone the cock notch angle to 93 degrees. Anything less than 90 degrees is unsafe. 90 degrees might be unsafe...you have to carefully check your work here. Then check it again.



Oops, in search of the 2 lbs trigger I decided to make sure the end of the sear was square, then change the 103 degree stock angle to 93 degrees. Hopefully this would lower the trigger pull while keeping the pistol safe. Above I created a very unsafe angle. The sear could ride up the face of hammer and accidentally fire. You don't want to be less than 90 degrees from my limited understanding. And, if you have moly powder on your hands you will drop your digital camera, apparently Canon makes pretty durable ones.



93 degrees is what I was aiming for. So, back to the stone for a little more careful stoning.




Not to take anything this pistol throws at me I began an effort to reach the 2 lb hammer. Everything is polished; rear of trigger bar legs that engage sear, bottom legs of sear where the bar engages, trigger spring weakened to 3 oz of trigger pull against it alone, sear spring weakened a bit, 8 lb hammer spring weakened to 6 lb 10 oz. Stock 103 degree sear/hammer angle has been re-stoned to a 93 degree angle. The pistol reassembled, lubed with moly and the trigger pull is now 1 lb 4 oz. This is a bit too light..but sure feels good. I can't force the hammer forward with my thumb when cocked, I can't shake, bang, tap, beat on a piles of books and make the hammer trip. How it will function when shooting is another matter. First I will shoot tomorrow at my range and measure trigger pull. Then I will put in another new sear spring...measure that. Then a stock hammer spring, measure that. I'm still aiming for 2 lbs. Before beginning work on the sear/hammer but after weakening the springs trigger pull was 3 lbs. Lyman digital. I'll shoot some tomorrow and see how it functions. Better safe than sorry. Pictures of process above and no I don't have a sear or hammer jig. Just have to work carefully, check for squareness, assemble, photo, blow up where I can really see it. 6x magnifying loupe helps some but isn't powerful enough.

Walther didn't send me those classified sear hammer drawings. They knew I'd post em I guess. This is work on a couple of critical components and can create an unsafe firearm.

........................

Well, all's well that ends well. No pistol parts were destroyed in the making of this thread and more importantly....no parts were lost or left over.



Put the correct sear spring back in, assembled the pistol. Above is the 3 pull avg. There is a big creep at 1 lb 10 oz. After that be ready for just a little more pull for it to break. Almost like a two stage trigger. The break is very sharp and clean but at this weight....you don't really feel it much. What I mean is...you feel the creep then just a small amount of increase pull drops the hammer. After the creep....be on target. I'll have to decide if I like this or not and how well it holds up. In the meantime I am going to order a Brownell sear and hammer jig. I will say the hardness of the hammer was pretty impressive. I was thinking it might be softer. I did a Rockwell hardness test one time of a bunch of P22 parts but don't remember them anymore. Old thread somewhere on the net and a P22 somewhere with indentations in various parts.

No, that isn't my thumb caught by the hammer but old foam ear plugs make great snap caps....and my ears aren't that dirty either....anymore that is.



Pistol back together. Originally this pistol did not have any trigger over travel. After the mods...it did. So I added a overtravel stop. This is very similar to the amount required on my '09 pistol which my sister has borrowed and has no intention of returning. Removal of material from the hammer notch and sear lets the hammer move forward/up when cocked. My previous efforts to free the slide from the cocked hammer were undone.....but very barely so. The cocked hammer now drags very lightly under the breech block. I'll save that for another day.

So what is next? See how I like this set up, see how the trigger pull and sear/hammer work holds up, see if the 6lb 10oz hammer spring keeps giving reliable firing pin strikes or if I need to install a new 8 lb spring, polish the hammer face to clear the bottom of the breech block. I will be the only one firing this pistol for a while. Now to go do some shootin. M1911

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 04-03-2013 at 10:14 PM.
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  #8  
Old 06-23-2013, 01:08 AM
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Have had the Q model apart for the past week, taking pictures, measuring stuff. At last stop the pistol had a trigger pull of about 2 1/4 lb but had creep almost at the end of the pull.

In studying all of this on the net and in books....almost 100% of the discussion is in regard to M1911s. While visiting Pro 1911, a group of gunsmiths were talking sear, hammer hook geometry and how they tuned a 1911s trigger. Original drawings were put up, CAD drawings were put up showing in great detail the geometry of the stock, time tested design. How to square the face of the extractor's primary angle, how to stone the secondary angle, widths, hammer hook squaring, hook height, safe service heights and custom heights for target shooting. Along the way one smith had an idea. The original design incorporated a very minimal positive engagement resulting in slightly lifting (rotating rearward) the hammer. His idea was to use the primary face of the sear, re-stone it to the shape of the true radius and build a stoning jig for it. This he did, posted pictures and the jig is now for sale through Brownells.

Other smiths sent him hammers and sears and he stoned them. Everyone was impressed. Apparently the only new concept in 100 years. Also it appears this method takes a lot of the precise angle stoning out of the equation.

So, I carefully measured the P22 sear and did my own true radius stoning. Then cut the secondary angle per 1911 style. Reinstalled the sear. The trigger break is crisp, the sear is safe, the creep is gone....but trigger pull dropped to 1 lb 10 oz. I still have to pull the trigger but that isn't much pull. Couldn't make the hammer drop with thumb or banging it around. Appears safe. I might have to put a full strength 8 lb hammer spring back in. I am currently running a 6 lb 11oz spring.

Guess I could remove the powdered moly too to increase the trigger pull. Sure is smooth. More on it all later. Did measure the layout, pin to pin...sear length, hammer profile, etc. Made a drawing or two. Walther has changed the hammer cock notch over the years in search of a better trigger. Actually the 4 lb stock trigger is quite good. M1911
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:38 PM
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Put a new hammer spring in it this morning and trigger pull went from 1 lb 10 oz to 2 lb 4 oz. I'm far from finished with this exercise. Had weakened the old hammer spring to 6 lb 10 oz. New spring is 8 lb. M1911



Fired a few groups of 10 at 21' offhand. Not too bad, not too good for an old guy. I can't see worth a hoot anymore. When you modify one part of the fire control group you effect the other parts. While shooting here, about 150 rounds, the trigger got worse and worse..... Delay in firing. I stopped to have a look. My over travel stop was now bottoming out. Had to file that off some and everything returned to normal. 1 lb 10 oz trigger for above groups.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:54 PM
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I haven't been on the sight in ages and I stumbled in on this project. Very cool, I thought about this but a couple of years back Mr. M1911 said he wasn't going to go here. I'm glad you did, I do enjoy tinkering myself.

We have been swamped at work, a GOOD THING. I have been rebuilding 2 different Marlin rimfire rifles as well as some others in my spare time.

I did say some time back I was going to make my own version of an extractor, I just have not had the time. I have located the materials and when I get some done I will share. As usual Nice Work and seeing as my own P-22 has been torn down for quite a while I will also do this modification.

Have a great summer everyone.
Elwood

Edit: By the way M1911 is answering his own thread, isn't anyone else doing this modification?
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:30 PM
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I do not have this kind of knowledge but I closely follow and admire these efforts and innovations.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:01 AM
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Stock 12/2012 Q model hammer geometry. Notice the spiral for the hammer hook height, notice that the safety notch is shorter. Anyone want to venture a guess as to why? Also, I've shown the hammer hook face alignment of my stock AK model hammer. M1911
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:38 PM
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I to follow 1911's threads and have tried many of his tricks. This one is next but this is a winter project for me if I'm in a rush I'll screw it up for sure. Lol
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood 1964 View Post
Have a great summer everyone.
Elwood

Edit: By the way M1911 is answering his own thread, isn't anyone else doing this modification?
Thanks Elwood....don't forget you owe me welding lessons if I ever make it up your way. Answering my own thread,,,, Is that like talking to yourself, do that all the time, no one else will listen to me.

RR, I haven't finished this experiment. Before you jump in remember you can ruin some parts pretty quickly here. Small parts without much room for error. Which is why I already need new parts even with my pistol functioning 100%. The guys in Germany are hooking me up with the guys in Ft Smith though so all should be well. Put a stock hammer spring back in.....2 lb 4 oz now and that sure feels safe and tests safe. Probably not for everyone though. Might get to try Crete's method for accurate aiming this weekend. Sure is hot and humid here.

Poured 22 cy concrete a couple of days ago. I haven't fully recovered from that yet. Winter would be bad enough....but 97 degrees and 458% humidity makes it rough on an old timer. M1911
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:46 PM
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1911,well by the time I HAVE any time to do a project like this the snow will be flying again up here in PA. I understand that I could screw up and need new parts,so the smart thing to do would be to get some new ones on order now. I would have the new ones to compare to the ones I worked on also. Oh no sounds like I got another plan in my head. Lol.
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