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  #31  
Old 12-10-2010, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sav99age View Post
I chased 52's for a while back before my Savage interests took over. I still have a few but I don't remember seeing any with the marked follower...but that was many years back.

With 10,000 plus 52's and their extra magazines with marked followers, seems like that style magazine would be more common than it is. Is it speculated or verified that the 52's shipped with marked followers for several years as a standard? I like having the correct style magazine in my rifles.

Were there seperate drawings for each LR magazine used in the 52, 56, 57 and 69? The only change till 1954 was the markings on the follower and floorplate.

Not trying to push anyones button but can't think of a better thread to ask these questions. I'm really enjoying they two magazine threads!
Hi Sav99age,

Excellent question and I thoroughly understand your reason for asking; I am a detail oriented guy like yourself and prefer things "correct".

Unfortunately I don't have definitive proof the .22 Long, R marked magazines were supplied with the 52's during that time window, a NIB 52 from the late '20's would be very nice to have for examination. I based that chart line item on the bits of existing information that Seewin mentioned with credence given to the Model 52 magazine drawing revisions which indicated the addition of the follower marking. Houze also mentions the marking of the Model 52 magazine followers in his book The Winchester Model 52, Perfection in Design page 74 and references the Winchester Change of Production Notice Number 11052 issued August 4th, 1925 which required the marking of the Model 52 followers. As an aside, I also have a late 1920's Model 52 which I received with a marked follower. There is no way to tell if the magazine is original to the gun but it is there.

Your question regarding the usage is valid and we will probably never know for sure if they all came with or without during that period. More than likely there were some supplied without markings even though the drawings and CoPN indicated the change. If your 52 in that date range has an unmarked follower you shouldn't have to worry about changing it.

Regarding the drawings, as Seewin stated, there were separate drawings for the 52, 56 and 57. I haven't seen drawings for the 69. There were in fact other changes to the drawings as Seewin mentioned including the increase of the feed lip width (2 areas) on 3/1/41 and increasing the manufacturing tolerance on the feed lips on 12-18-53. It is interesting to note that the Winchester 52 magazine drawing was not revised to indicate usage for other models (56, 57, 69, 69A, 74 & 75) until 6/3/41 which was well after the discontinuation of production for the 56 and 57 and years after the introduction of the 69 and 75.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Regards,



Here is a quick scan of one of the drawings referenced. I apologize for the poor quality, my scanner is on the fritz.




Last edited by JWA; 12-21-2015 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Fixed photo link
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  #32  
Old 12-10-2010, 12:59 AM
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I did see another change I need to make. According to the magazine baseplate drawing in the Henshaw collection and the series of Model 52 samples and examples in the Winchester collection, the magazine floorplate (base) was not marked at all on the early model 52 rifles. The magazine drawing was revised to indicate the addition of the floorplate marking (1919 patent date style) on July 8, 1920. Houze also mentions this but I forgot about it until now.

I'll fix that too and upload a new chart in the morning (R10 P1 & R10 P2).

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 12-10-2010 at 12:19 PM.
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  #33  
Old 12-10-2010, 02:46 AM
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I posted the latest revision (dated 12/9/10). To download, just right click each chart (R10 P1 and R10 P2) and choose "save picture as" then save to your computer.

Regards,
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  #34  
Old 12-10-2010, 10:30 AM
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This is going well. I wondered if anyone could comment on the history of the combo magazine package, in which both a short and a long rifle magazine came with the 69 or 69A? This too would mean there would be a LOT of shorts only mags out there, but we don't see them. I've about concluded that this practice of including both magazines was short-lived. Any data?
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  #35  
Old 12-10-2010, 11:19 AM
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I have no data except what is mentioned in the Winchester sales information but I do have a pile of .22 Short mags with the "69" variation marking on them. While not seemingly as plentiful as the "69" variation .22 LR & L. magazine they seem fairly common to me. I agree that the ratio numbers indicate the 69 was not supplied with both magazines through the entire production but I don't know when the omission of the .22 Short magazine was made.

Good question, maybe someone else can shed some light on the package.

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 01-02-2011 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #36  
Old 12-10-2010, 12:10 PM
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Here is another snippet of magazine info, the Model 52 Single Shot Adapter drawing.

Regards,


Last edited by JWA; 12-21-2015 at 04:21 PM. Reason: fixed photo link
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  #37  
Old 12-10-2010, 02:01 PM
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Weren't there 52's made in .22Short in the first few years? Did they ship with the LR magazine? Given that there was a drawing for a .22 Short magazine in 1920 might there have been .22 Short magazines prior to the 56/57 models?
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  #38  
Old 12-10-2010, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sav99age View Post
Weren't there 52's made in .22Short in the first few years? Did they ship with the LR magazine? Given that there was a drawing for a .22 Short magazine in 1920 might there have been .22 Short magazines prior to the 56/57 models?
Winchester considered offering the 52 in .22 Short and even mentioned it in their initial literature but no commercial Model 52's in .22 short were ever made.

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  #39  
Old 12-10-2010, 02:40 PM
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I keep hearing stories of 22 short early 52's, however as of yet I have never seen one. I did see a 22 short 52 Sporter, that one of the large dealers had listed. I looked it over pretty close, and have some serious doubts as to its originality.
Steve
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  #40  
Old 12-10-2010, 02:56 PM
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Some of the sample guns (pre-production) that were sent to Col. Whelen for evaluation were chambered for .22 Short and are referenced in correspondence between Whelen and Winchester. I have not seen them but there is sufficient evidence to indicate they did exist. There is no production information which indicates a .22 Short version was ever made during the normal production of the 52. There is some early documentation that suggests the accuracy of the .22 Short in the 52 barrel was sub-standard. Based on the initial success of the 52 in .22 LR and the Army award to Savage for the 1919 the .22 Short version was shelved (but not forgotten). The introduction of the 56 and 57 six years later gave Winchester the avenue to push the .22 Short forward. The accuracy problems experienced by the sample Model 52's during testing were addressed with a dedicated .22 Short barrel and magazine on the Model 56 and 57.

Regards,

Last edited by JWA; 12-10-2010 at 03:06 PM.
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  #41  
Old 12-10-2010, 03:32 PM
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Rafter posted this some time ago..something about farmers being better gun collectors..

44


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  #42  
Old 12-10-2010, 04:10 PM
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Rafter7 is no doubt a heck of a Winchester collector. The top rifle has no serial number and is more than likely one of the original samples I mentioned. I am envious he was able to fondle it. The second photo is probably the 52 Sporter Seewin mentioned he examined. I can't make out the whole serial number on it but it looks like the one I saw being discussed several years ago with regard to authenticity.

A picture is truly worth a thousand words, although there is no guarantee they are the right words

Regards,
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  #43  
Old 12-10-2010, 09:15 PM
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I too would have enjoyed "fondling" them..you guys and your shorts are killing me.

Speaking of words, they arent enough to express the gratitude you and others are making on this very indepth look at magazines. I'm speechless

44
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  #44  
Old 12-11-2010, 12:07 PM
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I know that your chart is for pre-1964 but the magazine for the later Winchester 52-B might be worth adding.http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=205494143
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  #45  
Old 12-11-2010, 01:51 PM
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If there is interest I can put together another chart illustrating the post-64 Winchester variations and replacement magazines. There are a significant number of them and I am hesitant to muddle the pre-64 chart with that data. I would prefer it on a separate chart if that is ok with everyone?

Regards,
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