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  #1  
Old 10-20-2017, 11:27 PM
leavinc
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Aerosol polyurethane solvent



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So I recently refinished a stock using minwax satin spray can polyurethane. Upon reading the can it says to clean up with lacquer thinner. Also it says to use lacquer thinner to clean the nozzle if it becomes clogged.


Doesn't this go against the traditional method that polyurethane cleans up with mineral spirits? Is the minwax spray on poly really a type of Lacquer? I can't see why they would mention lacquer thinner instead of mineral spirits.

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  #2  
Old 10-21-2017, 09:31 AM
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"Rattle cans"

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Originally Posted by leavinc View Post
So I recently refinished a stock using minwax satin spray can polyurethane. Upon reading the can it says to clean up with lacquer thinner. Also it says to use lacquer thinner to clean the nozzle if it becomes clogged.


Doesn't this go against the traditional method that polyurethane cleans up with mineral spirits? Is the minwax spray on poly really a type of Lacquer? I can't see why they would mention lacquer thinner instead of mineral spirits.

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Go here

https://www.minwax.com/wood-products...g-polyurethane

and click on directions.

The Lacquer Thinner is under the section NOZZLE CARE for cleaning the spray "button".

Without getting into a lot of chemical stuff, virtually all rattle can formulations will form a different "coating" inside the "pinhole" in the nozzle or spray button then it will when applied to a substrate because the chemicals needed to make it sprayable in a standard rattle can spray nozzle.

That "coating" ON THE NOZZLE, regardless of whether the product is an enamel or poly or urethane or lacquer or shellac, cannot be cleaned effectively unless you use either lacquer thinner or even spray it with carburetor cleaner to clean the tip and/or the inside of the nozzle when removed it that is necessary.

Normally you can wipe off the gunk but in some cases you cannot which then requires you to remove the nozzle and slosh it around in lacquer thinner until both the pinhole and the tube used to transfer the material to it are both clear.

In extreme cases you may need to clean the tube permanently attached to the rattle can.

If you decide to save the nozzles like I do then storing them in some lacquer thinner in a sealed jar will make them useful for next time.

The APPLICATION DIRECTIONS, which are for the product itself, is where you use the Mineral Spirits for the cleanup.

They are separate and distinct areas in the total document and need to be looked at that way.

If you go to the Aerosol Directions you won't see the MS reference but you will see an overview of some of the chemicals needed to make the spray formulations work and warning folks about them.

If you go to the Material Safety Data Sheets you will see all the chemicals needed to make the spray formulations work but if you look at the MSDS sheet for the stuff in the can you will see they are not there.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 10-22-2017 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 10-21-2017, 09:38 AM
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MS will clean up uncured poly. LT is a more aggressive solvent and will dissolve cured poly. Norm will be here in a minute to tell us us how and why. He is the resident SME.
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Old 10-21-2017, 09:39 AM
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I type sloooow.
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Old 10-21-2017, 09:39 AM
leavinc
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Under the aerosol directions it says cleanup with lacquer thinner. That's what I'm referencing.

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Old 10-21-2017, 05:37 PM
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Aerosol

I think I explained why the difference between the finish and the nozzle. If not then ask.

Relative to Lacquer Thinner....

Lacquer Thinner as well as Denatured Alcohol and Acetone will SOFTEN the wood finish but will NOT cause it to break the bond between it and the substrate.....ie: won't cause it to lift.

You can use it but is is extremely labor intensive....about the same as sanding the finish off.

"The best thing you could have used to get the polyurethane off is a methylene chloride paint remover but it certainly wouldn't make the nontoxic, nondangerous criteria and are quite the opposite."

ref: Fine Woodworking

noremf(George)

TRIVIA:

I was in a Home Depot store two weeks ago and a customer had brought back some Paint Thinner saying it was no good cause he tried it to remove a poly finish and nothing happened.

He said he was assured by the guy who sold it to him that:

"He told me I could use Low Odor Mineral Spirits, and apply it with a tack cloth, and use a small bristle brush to rub in the direction of the wood grain. (I bought a 3-pack of handheld brushes, one being nylon, one some kind of softer metal wire, and one being a steel wire brush.)"

First off many of the low odor mineral spirits are not mineral spirits at all but can be a variety of "safe" solvents like alcohol. There are some that are real mineral spirits but to the tune of maybe 20% and the rest simply "fill" chemicals which do nothing. They are very weak and unless you look at Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) you are better off not using them.

Second....wiping down a wood finish or bare wood with a tack cloth is dumber then dirt. Most of em use silicone and there is a sticky on what that will, not can, do to either.

Third.....if the finish comes off it will be because of the steel wire brushes, not either the "soft brushes" or the Mineral Spirits and it will be not only labor intensive but will scratch the snot out of the wood fibers meaning you will have to sand the substrate down.

I was all prepared to stick my nose in the discussion but fortunately the "weekly day guy" knew his "poop" and went through fundamentally the same thing I just posted. Apologized, sold the guy a chemical stripper, credited him with the purchase price of the low odor MS and the brushes and told him to keep them courtesy of HD.

IMO another example of the buyer knowing something about what they are looking at and not relying on folks at the stores...unfortunately sad to say.

TRIVIA #2.

Before some sharp guy/gal brings up why strong acidic solvents like Lacquer Thinner or Acetone or especially spray carb cleaner works on your hands but won't work well on a number of chemical coatings it is because the human skin has epidermis layers ie: not a solid substrate, so cleaners like that work well for that albeit they also damage those layers.

Last edited by noremf; 10-21-2017 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:53 PM
leavinc
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What I'm saying is that although there is a nozzle clean up section (lacquer thinner) it also mentions lacquer thinner a second time for clean up. I assume this means like general clean up.


That's why I'm confused. It says to use lacquer thinner for the nozzle AND for clean up. The spray can instructions don't mention mineral spirits once but mention lacquer thinner twice

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Old 10-22-2017, 02:06 AM
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Lacquer

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavinc View Post
What I'm saying is that although there is a nozzle clean up section (lacquer thinner) it also mentions lacquer thinner a second time for clean up. I assume this means like general clean up.

NO!!!!!!


That's why I'm confused. It says to use lacquer thinner for the nozzle AND for clean up. The spray can instructions don't mention mineral spirits once but mention lacquer thinner twice

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These are the instructions directly from the MinWax® website.

"For aerosol directions, click here (that will take you down to the section about rattle cans.)

Interior Use Only

WARNING! Removal of old paint by sanding, scraping or other means may generate dust or fumes that contain lead. Exposure to lead dust or fumes may cause brain damage or other adverse health effects, especially in children or pregnant women. Controlling exposure to lead or other hazardous substances requires the use of proper protective equipment such as a properly fitted respirator (NIOSH approved) and proper containment and cleanup. For more information, call the National Lead Information Center at 1-800-424-LEAD (in US) or contact your local health authority.
Directions:

Surface must be dry and free of old finishes in poor condition, paint, wax, grease, polish, dirt or other foreign matter.
Sand to obtain a smooth uniform surface. Remove all dust with a cloth dampened with mineral spirits.
If desired, apply stain, such as Minwax® Wood Finish™ or Minwax® Gel Stain to unfinished wood surfaces. Follow directions for application and dry times.
Stir Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane before and during use to eliminate settling on the bottom of the can. Stir to rotate the product from the bottom to the top of the can. NEVER SHAKE.
Apply a THIN coat of Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane using a high-quality natural or foam

For floor projects, use a square buff orbital or disk-type sander with 220 grit sandpaper or the equivalent grit pad or screen (specifically designed for sanding between coats). Do not use a belt or drum-type sander for sanding between coats. Follow the sander manufacturer’s directions for your type of project.
Apply second coat. If third coat is desired, repeat step 6 before application.
After final coat, allow 24 hours before light use.

When used on hardwood floors, use a lambswool or synthetic pad applicator or natural bristle brush and maintain a wet edge to avoid lap marks. For maximum durability, we recommend three coats. Avoid heavy traffic and replacing of furniture for 72 hours after final coat. When replacing furniture, do not slide. Do not install rugs or clean floors for 7 days.

CLEANUP: Use mineral spirits or paint thinner following manufacturer’s safety instructions.

COVERAGE: Approximately 125 square feet per quart.

Note: Above dry times are based on good ventilation, temperature of 77°F and 50% relative humidity. Lower temperature, higher humidity, lack of air movement or application of thick coats will extend drying times. Always test tackiness between coats. Do not sand or re-coat when surface is tacky. Slight ambering may be experienced when Polyurethane is applied over light-colored wood surfaces. Always spot test on an inconspicuous area to ensure satisfactory results. For light-colored wood surfaces, we recommend protecting with Minwax® Polycrylic® Protective Finish or Minwax® Ultimate Floor Finish.

DANGER: Rags, steel wool, other waste soaked with this product, and sanding residue may spontaneously catch fire if improperly discarded. Immediately place rags, steel wool, other waste

soaked with this product, and sanding residue in a sealed, water-filled, metal container. Dispose of in accordance with local fire regulations.

CAUTIONS: CONTAINS ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS.

Contents are COMBUSTIBLE. Keep away from heat and open flame.

VAPOR HARMFUL. Use only with adequate ventilation. To avoid overexposure, open windows and doors or use other means to ensure fresh air entry during application and drying. If you experience eye watering, headaches, or dizziness, increase fresh air, or wear respiratory protection (NIOSH approved) or leave the area. Avoid contact with eyes and skin. Wash hands after using. Keep container closed when not in use. Do not transfer contents to other containers for storage.

FIRST AID: In case of eye contact, flush thoroughly with large amounts of water for 15 minutes and get medical attention. For skin contact, wash thoroughly with soap and water. In case of respiratory difficulty, provide fresh air and call physician. If swallowed, call Poison Control Center, hospital emergency room, or physician immediately.|

DELAYED EFFECTS FROM LONG TERM OVEREXPOSURE. Contains solvents which can cause permanent brain and nervous system damage. Intentional misuse by deliberately concentrating and inhaling the contents can be harmful or fatal.

WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

DO NOT TAKE INTERNALLY. KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN.


Aerosol Directions

Interior Use Only

WARNING! If you scrape, sand or remove old paint, you may release lead dust. Lead Is Toxic. Contact the National Lead Information Hotline at 1-800-424-LEAD or log on to www.epa.gov/lead.

The surface must be dry and free of old finishes in poor condition, paint, wax, grease, polish, dirt or other foreign matter.
Sand to obtain a smooth, uniform surface. Remove all dust.
If desired, apply stain, such as Minwax® Wood Finish™ Stain, to unfinished wood surfaces. Follow directions for application instructions and dry times.
Shake Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane vigorously for two minutes. Shake for 10 seconds occasionally during use.
Protect adjacent areas from overspray. Wet overspray can be removed with mineral sprits.
Hold can vertically 12 inches from surface. Depress button fully and spray using an even, sweeping motion with slightly overlapping strokes. On unfinished wood, apply sufficient material to seal open joints, edges and end-grain.

Apply thin coats to avoid runs and sags. Recoat within 2 hours. If unable to do so, wait a minimum of 72 hours, then lightly sand and recoat.
Apply at least three coats on unfinished wood and two coats on surfaces already finished.
After final coat, allow 24 hours before normal use.

Note: Above dry times are based on good ventilation, temperature of 77°F and 50% relative humidity. Lower temperature, higher humidity, lack of air movement or application of thick coats will extend drying times. Slight ambering may be experienced when Polyurethane is applied over light-colored wood surfaces. Always spot test on an inconspicuous area to ensure satisfactory results. Minwax® Polycrylic® Protective Finish is recommended over light-colored wood surfaces.
Nozzle Care

After each use, clear valve by holding can upside down and spraying until only clear gas comes out.
If spray button becomes clogged, wear eye protection, wipe off button opening with lacquer thinner- Do NOT stick pin in spray button opening.

CLEANUP: For easy clean-up, use lacquer thinner following the manufacturer’s safety instructions.

Again,they are talking about cleaning the nozzle and your hands.....not the finish!

DANGER: Rags, steel wool, other waste soaked with this product, and sanding residue may spontaneously catch fire if improperly discarded. Immediately place rags, steel wool, other waste soaked with this product, and sanding residue in a sealed, water-filled, metal container. Dispose of in accordance with local fire regulations.

CAUTIONS: CONTAINS ALIPHATIC HYDROCARBONS AND KETONES. DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE.

Keep away from heat, sparks, and open flame. Vapors will accumulate readily and may ignite explosively. Keep area ventilated during use and until all vapors are gone. DO NOT SMOKE

Extinguish all flames, pilot lights and heaters -Turn off stoves, electric tools and appliances, and any other sources of ignition. CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE. Avoid prolonged exposure to sunlight or heat from radiators, stoves, hot water and other heat sources that may cause bursting. Do not puncture, incinerate, burn or store above 120°F. Keep upright in a cool, dry place. Do not discard empty can in trash compactor.

VAPOR HARMFUL. Use with adequate ventilation. Avoid continuous breathing of vapor and spray mist. To avoid breathing vapors or spray mist, open windows and doors or use other means to ensure fresh air entry during application and drying. If you experience eye watering, headaches, or dizziness, increase fresh air or wear respiratory protection (NIOSH approved) or leave the area. Overexposure may cause numbness in extremities which can persist for some period of time and may be permanent. Avoid contact with eyes and skin. Wash hands after using.

FIRST AID: In case of eye contact, flush thoroughly with large amounts of water for 15 minutes and get medical attention. For skin contact, wash thoroughly with soap and water. In case of respiratory difficulty, provide fresh air and call physician.

DELAYED EFFECTS FROM LONG TERM OVEREXPOSURE. Contains solvents which can cause permanent brain and nervous system damage. Intentional misuse by deliberately concentrating and inhaling the contents can be harmful or fatal.

WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

DO NOT TAKE INTERNALLY. KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN.

CONFORMS TO ASTM D-4236. Contact a physician for more health information.

When the propellant flashes or burns off which in most cases will happen before the finish coat even gets to the substrate, assuming you are doing it correctly, you are left with the poly coating which is the same stuff that is in the can except thinner. Even if you spray too much they will flash or burn off if you follow the dry recoat times again leaving you with only the poly again the same stuff as what's in the can only thinner.

I am a retired Sherwin Williams Co. senior manager and ran plants that made that stuff and ultimately was a Director of the Division those plants were in and I don't know how to say it more simply so I am not going to try.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 10-22-2017 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:13 AM
leavinc
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In the instructions above, the aerosol version says cleanup with lacquer thinner. I'm still wondering why it would say that

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Old 10-22-2017, 02:20 AM
leavinc
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This is in the Aerosol section of their instructions.


"NOZZLE CARE: After each use, clear valve by holding can upside down and spraying until only clear gas comes out.If spray button becomes clogged, wear eye protection, wipe off button opening with lacquer thinner- Do NOT stick pin in spray button opening.

CLEANUP:*For easy clean-up, use lacquer thinner following the manufacturer’s safety instructions."


The "Cleanup" is what I'm referring to. Yes.....in the first part it says mineral spirits. But that's for the original poly products. Specifically in the aerosol section it never mentions mineral spirits.



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Old 10-22-2017, 02:41 AM
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Here is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavinc View Post
In the instructions above, the aerosol version says cleanup with lacquer thinner. I'm still wondering why it would say that

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Here are the chemicals in the aerosol version.



The result of mixing those chemicals together is required to get the poly out through that teensy universal spray nozzle.

Here are the chemicals in the NON-aerosol version.



The formulations are completely different relative to the solvents and carriers....not even close.

Mineral Spirits WILL NOT dissolve the chemicals that can accrue in the nozzles or on your hands, in the aerosol version so that is why WE say to use Lacquer Thinner cause it will.

If it matters any, SW invented and patented the rattle can spray nozzle and at one time was the largest producer of the rattle cans worldwide under the Sprayon banner.

While I did not run the "Sprayon" plant in Bedford Ohio I do have more then a passing knowledge of what it made and how they made it.

Since SW bought Krylon I am not sure where all the rattle cans are made and filled.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 10-22-2017 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:00 AM
leavinc
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That's what I was looking for. Thank you

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Old 10-22-2017, 10:40 AM
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Thanks George. I was a cabinet maker from 1897 until last Dec. and I always read the posts on RFC that pertain to finishing because I know you will share. Wish I would have joined years ago. I don't often use the aerosol cans because I have a compressor and spray equipment. But again I have gained some more knowledge on this subject thanks to what is shared here. And thanks to leavinc for asking such a good question.
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Old 10-22-2017, 11:02 AM
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Trivia

Quote:
Originally Posted by profsrgary View Post
Thanks George. I was a cabinet maker from 1897 until last Dec. and I always read the posts on RFC that pertain to finishing because I know you will share. Wish I would have joined years ago. I don't often use the aerosol cans because I have a compressor and spray equipment. But again I have gained some more knowledge on this subject thanks to what is shared here. And thanks to leavinc for asking such a good question.
When you use your own compressor and the appropriate nozzle size and PSI then you can thin the stuff in the can to make it work even better then the rattle can stuff.

Assuming you know how to spray in the first place.

You do that with ORIGINAL FORMULA Mineral Spirits if it is a poly or urethane.

noremf(George)
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