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  #1  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:33 PM
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Need help staining baltic birch



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This post goes to Georgia (noemf), or any of you guys who have built a stock from baltic birch plywood. I have glued up some baltic birch plywood and will be attempting to build a benchrest stock. This will be a first-time project. The coloring of this wood, is where I'm going to stumble. Do I stain or dye the wood? What steps do I take??
Help please.
Larry

Last edited by lbjennings; 09-14-2017 at 03:52 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:48 PM
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Coloring a stock

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbjennings View Post
This post goes to Georgia (noemf), or any of you guys who have built a stock from baltic birch plywood. I have glued up some baltic birch plywood and will be attempting to build a benchrest stock. This will be a first-time project. The coloring of this wood, is where I'm going to stumble. Do I stain or dye the wood? What steps do I take??
Help please.
Larry
If you are using plywood and when you shape it then you will have glue lines.

While dyes are better then stains in almost every instance, neither will color the glue lines.

You might want to consider a product like this:

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/...nwax-gel-stain

It is not a stain regardless of that word in the label. It is only there so as not to confuse the potential customers.

Fundamentally a "paint" except it contains a lot less solids and the carrier/solvents allow it to create a good film forming finish.

Would need to practice on a piece of scrap wood first though.

You can thin it with ORIGINAL FORMULA MINERALS SPIRITS. NO GREEN STUFF, NO ODORLESS STUFF, NO STUFF IN A PLASTIC CONTAINER.


I have some of the odorless stuff and tried it out to remove some bugs,tree sap on the car etc. and also to remove some mold on plastic pool chairs.

Simple Green did a better job by far.

I was gonna take a picture but got disgusted and did not bother.

EDITORIAL COMMENT: As far as I am concerned non original formula mineral spirits sucks as a degreaser and you cannot use it to thin anything!!!!!!!!

This sticky goes over the original formula stuff.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...69&postcount=1

Since the gel will add color with every application, thinning some of it in a jar and then painting it on a piece of scrap plywood or if you are artistically inclined on a piece of glass and then holding over your stock will kinda make sure you don't get it too dark with a single coat. Like any colorant, you kinda want to skulk up on it.

The major issue with Birch is trying to make it look like something it is not.

If you have wide "foggy" areas like in the MS sticky then it is tricky to blend those in. Normally though with plywood you won't but maybe you will.

If you do though then you can blend in the faux finish that the gel stuff makes and make it look like anything you want. Stuff is used on metal doors and with a little artistic talent hard to tell they are not wood.

noremf(George)

EDITORIAL COMMENT #2: Stay faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from the Polyshades regardless of what anybody tells you or what you read. Not one of Sherwin Williams Co. better ideas. They really suck for anything other then maybe wooden stairs or stuff you are not going to "up on" when looking at them.
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  #3  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
If you are using plywood and when you shape it then you will have glue lines.

While dyes are better then stains in almost every instance, neither will color the glue lines.

You might want to consider a product like this:

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/...nwax-gel-stain

It is not a stain regardless of that word in the label. It is only there so as not to confuse the potential customers.

Fundamentally a "paint" except it contains a lot less solids and the carrier/solvents allow it to create a good film forming finish.

Would need to practice on a piece of scrap wood first though.

You can thin it with ORIGINAL FORMULA MINERALS SPIRITS. NO GREEN STUFF, NO ODORLESS STUFF, NO STUFF IN A PLASTIC CONTAINER.


I have some of the odorless stuff and tried it out to remove some bugs,tree sap on the car etc. and also to remove some mold on plastic pool chairs.

Simple Green did a better job by far.

I was gonna take a picture but got disgusted and did not bother.

EDITORIAL COMMENT: As far as I am concerned non original formula mineral spirits sucks as a degreaser and you cannot use it to thin anything!!!!!!!!

This sticky goes over the original formula stuff.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...69&postcount=1

Since the gel will add color with every application, thinning some of it in a jar and then painting it on a piece of scrap plywood or if you are artistically inclined on a piece of glass and then holding over your stock will kinda make sure you don't get it too dark with a single coat. Like any colorant, you kinda want to skulk up on it.

The major issue with Birch is trying to make it look like something it is not.

If you have wide "foggy" areas like in the MS sticky then it is tricky to blend those in. Normally though with plywood you won't but maybe you will.

If you do though then you can blend in the faux finish that the gel stuff makes and make it look like anything you want. Stuff is used on metal doors and with a little artistic talent hard to tell they are not wood.

noremf(George)

EDITORIAL COMMENT #2: Stay faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from the Polyshades regardless of what anybody tells you or what you read. Not one of Sherwin Williams Co. better ideas. They really suck for anything other then maybe wooden stairs or stuff you are not going to "up on" when looking at them.
Thanks George
I'll get a can of the gel stain and play with it. Is there any difference between the water base and the alcohol base dyes? Does one penetrate better?
I guess, if the stock doesn't turn out to my liking, I can prime it and do a paint job on it.
Larry

Last edited by lbjennings; 09-14-2017 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:31 AM
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This as a birch stock from a Savage 12 I am building. You can clearly see the glue lines, which on this one I don't think is a detrimental thing.


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  #5  
Old 09-15-2017, 01:39 AM
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Dyes

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbjennings View Post
Thanks George
I'll get a can of the gel stain and play with it. Is there any difference between the water base and the alcohol base dyes? Does one penetrate better?
I guess, if the stock doesn't turn out to my liking, I can prime it and do a paint job on it.
Larry
I assume you are talking about the stuff you mix up yourself. So on that.

As far as penetration goes not enough difference between the water born and alcohol born dyes.

You get some raised grain with the water born stuff that you won't get with the alcohol born stuff but you can knock the "fuzz" off without messing up the color or wet it down beforehand with a small hand held sprayer and knock it if then.

In either case the powdered colorants are far better then premixed stuff. You can make em as light or dark as you want easily. Can't do that, at least easily, with the ready mix stuff.

Can also mix match the colors and get perzactly what you want. Hard to do with the ready mixed stuff.

The powdered stuff has an infinite shelf life if you keep the cap on what is left of the powder and you only need a small of the powder for a stock.

Ready mixed stuff

https://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains/

The stuff you buy in box stores, ready mixed stuff, has metal oxides in them for color, not organic pigments, and they are very LARGE. Because the particle size is so big they don't penetrate well, if at all, in the wood fibers or cellulose. Hide lots of the subtle stuff in the wood. Tend to make it look kinda "foggy" or as some folks call the results...."murky".

They are not miscible with either water or a solvent so they start to settle out pretty quick. Limited shelf life.

Tough to thin down to get a light "wash".

noremf(George).

TRIVIA: not everybody's "cup of tea" but if you use hide glue for the joining, the hot stuff you make yourself from the crystals, the glue joints will accept a colorant.

It has been and continues to be the adhesive of choice for professional woodworkers........especially for veneers which are a form of laminate if you will.

Crystals have an infinite shelf life if stored in an airtight container.

Something to ponder next time around.

Last edited by noremf; 09-15-2017 at 01:54 AM.
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  #6  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
I assume you are talking about the stuff you mix up yourself. So on that.

As far as penetration goes not enough difference between the water born and alcohol born dyes.

You get some raised grain with the water born stuff that you won't get with the alcohol born stuff but you can knock the "fuzz" off without messing up the color or wet it down beforehand with a small hand held sprayer and knock it if then.

In either case the powdered colorants are far better then premixed stuff. You can make em as light or dark as you want easily. Can't do that, at least easily, with the ready mix stuff.

Can also mix match the colors and get perzactly what you want. Hard to do with the ready mixed stuff.

The powdered stuff has an infinite shelf life if you keep the cap on what is left of the powder and you only need a small of the powder for a stock.

Ready mixed stuff

https://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains/

The stuff you buy in box stores, ready mixed stuff, has metal oxides in them for color, not organic pigments, and they are very LARGE. Because the particle size is so big they don't penetrate well, if at all, in the wood fibers or cellulose. Hide lots of the subtle stuff in the wood. Tend to make it look kinda "foggy" or as some folks call the results...."murky".

They are not miscible with either water or a solvent so they start to settle out pretty quick. Limited shelf life.

Tough to thin down to get a light "wash".

noremf(George).

TRIVIA: not everybody's "cup of tea" but if you use hide glue for the joining, the hot stuff you make yourself from the crystals, the glue joints will accept a colorant.

It has been and continues to be the adhesive of choice for professional woodworkers........especially for veneers which are a form of laminate if you will.

Crystals have an infinite shelf life if stored in an airtight container.

Something to ponder next time around.
Thanks George
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  #7  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol shooter View Post
This as a birch stock from a Savage 12 I am building. You can clearly see the glue lines, which on this one I don't think is a detrimental thing.


I think that stock looks pretty good. If my stock turns out 1/2 as good, I'll be happy. I'm gonna do what George said. I'll get some scrap and sand a few shapes in the wood, then try a few dyes and stains. Probably need to sand as smooth as the stock, to get an accurate test of colors.
Larry
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:51 AM
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I had to touch this up in one spot, Minwax dark walnut was a perfect match, just FYI.
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  #9  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol shooter View Post
I had to touch this up in one spot, Minwax dark walnut was a perfect match, just FYI.
I have a couple laminated stocks from Boyd's and one from Savage. I like the look, but I'm sure glueing, already dyed layers of wood is better than staining a finished stock.
Larry
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbjennings View Post
I have a couple laminated stocks from Boyd's and one from Savage. I like the look, but I'm sure glueing, already dyed layers of wood is better than staining a finished stock.
Larry
That's what I was going to say. The manufactures dye/stain the individual layers before glueing up the slab. I wouldn't doubt they do it in a vessel pulled down with a vacuum pump.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:25 PM
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This particular stock is just white birch under the surface finish, I know because I had to bed the action and inlet it to fit a Heavy Varmint barrel.
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:58 PM
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Gel stain faux finishes

First off I am not saying that you use a Gel Stain on your stock. Merely pointing out an option.

Second if you do and want to create a faux wood finish it is not easy but can give some startling results.

Here are some examples on what you can do and surfaces that it was done on.



Metal garage door....original finish is powder coated.



White ceramic tile. Grout was masked off.



Nasty old painted plasterboard wall



Birch table top #1



Birch table top #2 if you really get artistic.

Again, a learned process but kinda fun to play with during the winter and you live in "yankee" land.

noremf(George)

PS: Imagine what you could do with a laminated stock.
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Old 09-16-2017, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
First off I am not saying that you use a Gel Stain on your stock. Merely pointing out an option.

Second if you do and want to create a faux wood finish it is not easy but can give some startling results.

Here are some examples on what you can do and surfaces that it was done on.



Metal garage door....original finish is powder coated.



White ceramic tile. Grout was masked off.



Nasty old painted plasterboard wall



Birch table top #1



Birch table top #2 if you really get artistic.

Again, a learned process but kinda fun to play with during the winter and you live in "yankee" land.

noremf(George)

PS: Imagine what you could do with a laminated stock.
Thanks George,
I think, on this stock, I want to try and have the layers of plywood showing. I'm gonna take some scrap and final sand it like my stock. That should give me an idea, of the look I'm trying to achieve. Just finding the product to use may take some time.
I'll send pictures, when I do.
Larry
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  #14  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:40 AM
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You stock

Saw a pic of your stock that you posted on the 10/22 forum. Wish you would have posted here also.

With that laminate you have a variety of options but since it does not have any of the "foggy" or "cloudy" areas either a dye or a stain should work well for you IMO.

Still my recommendation that you "skulk" up on the color though especially if you use a stain. Getting it darker if you don't like it is easy, especially with a stain cause it will add color with each coat until it can end up looking like you painted the stock with Krylon. Dyes won't do that as they will simply stop adding color when the color of the dye is reached.

Getting it lighter though requires a chemical for the most part and is a PIA IMO and on a laminate might cause laminates to separate.

noremf(George)
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Old 09-16-2017, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremf View Post
Saw a pic of your stock that you posted on the 10/22 forum. Wish you would have posted here also.

With that laminate you have a variety of options but since it does not have any of the "foggy" or "cloudy" areas either a dye or a stain should work well for you IMO.

Still my recommendation that you "skulk" up on the color though especially if you use a stain. Getting it darker if you don't like it is easy, especially with a stain cause it will add color with each coat until it can end up looking like you painted the stock with Krylon. Dyes won't do that as they will simply stop adding color when the color of the dye is reached.

Getting it lighter though requires a chemical for the most part and is a PIA IMO and on a laminate might cause laminates to separate.

noremf(George)
George,
I tried about a half dozen stains this morning, then I went to our local hardware store. They had this minwax blue tint that struck my eye. I've tried it on my scrap wood. It seemed to give the birch a nice soft color and bringing out the layers of the plywood, without being too extreme. Haven't ever colored a stock with an off the wall tint like this.
Larry
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