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High Velocity vs. Standard Velocity- Groups

12K views 60 replies 25 participants last post by  BobSc 
#1 ·
Okay, maybe this is just a matter of me having too much time to think about this stuff but I'm starting to wonder about this subject more lately....

We've probably all heard that subsonic/SV ammo is more accurate at 100 yards or beyond just because it doesn't have the upset caused by dropping through the sonic barrier like HV ammo does. Supposedly, this upsets the flight of the bullet and decreases accuracy after this stage of flight.
I know I've even parroted this line of thinking since I've heard it from some very knowledgeable people on different forum and sites I frequent.

However, it seems lately there is some pushback from people who should know what they are talking about. So, my question is how many of you have tested this theory and how well does it really hold water? Seems like this would be a good way to spend an afternoon with your favorite rifle(s) and a pile of ammo trying to prove or disprove this old wive's tale?

Whatcha' think? Anybody up for some testing? ;)

Bob
 
#44 ·
I guess each person can set up this testing as scientifically or unscientifically as they choose but the one thing that keeps gnawing at me is this- after all the talk about the supersonic transition, how much does it really affect accuracy at certain distances? If we're only talking a few ten thousandths it is hardly worth considering, except for perhaps serious bench shooters.

Knowing you velocities at the muzzle and at the 100 yard mark can be pretty fairly deduced from printed information already available but setting up your chrono at different distances to measure for each change of ammo may be worthwhile to you- or not.

When all is said and done we are still down to the same question we always seem to have on this site- which ammo shoots best in our particular rifles? And, should I try different ammos that I have avoided in the past due to "supersonic transition effect"? Depending on your requirements I would think this can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it... but I do hope everyone shares their information so there is some benefit to the group..

Bob
 
#45 ·
Rule of thumb, 16" barrel gives highest velocity.

Rule of thumb, a 16 inch barrel will give a standard .22 long rifle bullet the highest velocity. Powder/gasses have finished expansion and thereafter barrel friction slows the bullet. If you have a chronograph shoot your ammo with a target pistol, the shortest rifle barrel and the longest and look at the results.

And back to reducing variables, match ammo is made with a higher QC than high speed ammo. All of the benchrest shooters are using match ammo. None use high speed ammo. Shooting 50 yards the transition from supersonic to subsonic would take place. So how much of the results are due to that and how much due to QC ?

I believe the centerfire bench shooters like high velocity though out the entire range they are shooting and experience poor results if the rounds go sub-sonic before reaching the target.
 
#46 ·
Personally, I don't really understand why the high velocity accuracy vs. standard velocity never seems to end. Some additional items to consider:

- I have been shooting outdoor prone matches for 35 year (US and UK) and the total number of times I have witness experienced competitors using HV ammunition is zero
- The only time I have ever witnessed someone shooting HV was a kid whose parents had some reason purchased Remington Golden bullets and that is what the kid used.

- High Velocity has never been made to the same specifications as standard velocity or match ammunition as it was primarily meant to go fast for use by the shooter. On that note, take a quality rifle and shoot at 100 yards with CCI standard velocity vs. Eley Match / Center-X, etc and see what happens. You get what you pay for with .22 ammunition and match ammunition is more expensive as the requirements are more stringent

- As previously noted the wind deflection with HV ammunition is significantly more than with standard velocity. I will add that even with standard velocity ammunition the wind deflection with a round traveling at 1,090 FPS vs. 1,055 FPS is significant. Most R-50 is around 1,100 FPS it can be very tricky to use in medium to high velocity winds

About 12 years ago I purchased eight bricks of R-100 for one of my rifles and if the wind is less than 5 mph then it really shines. However as the wind velocity goes up the results at 100 yards look more like a shotgun was used. I tried it one at Perry in 10-15 mph winds at 100 yards and ironically the first shot was an X, then the next 20 or so never even came close to the X ring, so I broke out some Eley Match 1,054 FPS and finished the target. I still have several bricks of the R-100 and probably will for some time as working with a high velocity match round is a lot more work than a traditional .22 match round. Its performance beyond 50 yards is just not reliable.

Bill
 
#49 ·
For those of us who don't compete the burning question really is- "how much difference does it really make?". Will it be minute of squirrel head at 100 yards, or??????

I'm quite aware of what competitors shoot, but for those of us who only compete against ourselves and the sneaky squirrels and rats, will it be better to use the SV or the harder hitting HV HP at moderate ranges... Of course, only personal testing with our own firearms will really tell the story..

Bob
 
#52 ·
For those of us who don't compete the burning question really is- "how much difference does it really make?". Will it be minute of squirrel head at 100 yards, or??????

I'm quite aware of what competitors shoot, but for those of us who only compete against ourselves and the sneaky squirrels and rats, will it be better to use the SV or the harder hitting HV HP at moderate ranges... Of course, only personal testing with our own firearms will really tell the story..

Bob
Bob I was a rifle competitor most of my adult life but now only shoot prairie dogs. I have a Ruger 10/22 with a T barrel bedded in a aftermarket stock with a VQ trigger pack that puts the pull weight at about 2 lbs. This rifle with a selected lot of Lapua Midas will produce honest 3/4 inch groups at 90 yards, my limit. With the rifle sighted in at 50 yards the hold over look like this: 60 yds .5, 70 yds 1.0, 80 yds 2.00 and 90 yds 4.0. If I have a good field hold and have used the range finder, this combination is deadly on big prairie dogs. I don't mean the little ones but the big old ones as well. Now I will admit that $15.00 a box is a bit of over kill but I stopped shooting benchrest matches a few years ago and have about 3000 rounds of the good lot left. Still, if I didn't have that lot, I would be looking at a lot of Center X or SK Rifle match instead. For me it's better to spend the money for the few shots I take then risking it on any HV ammo that will not produce 3/4 inch groups at 90 yards. Don't discount what rifle competitors say. They have a lot of experience, especially with SV ammo and most likely shoot more precision shots in a year than most every day shooters will shoot in their lifetime. Happy hunting.

BTW, until a few years ago I was the manager of a free public range in a big hunting area and I have seen the results of many, many every day .22lr shooters at ranges from 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. Seeing their groups at any range, I would not be worried about whether SV or HV ammo was more accurate. %99 do not shoot groups, they shoot patterns.
 
#51 ·
Playing with the physics, aerodynamics, and reading through the calculations,
a possible explanation occurred to me. Friction, velocity, spin, mass can all be computed
and accounted for. Only variable that can't is surface area. Increased surface area
would explain the increased susceptibility to wind drift. At subsonic velocities
there is minimal atmosheric compression taking place. There's room for the molecules
to deflect away from and around the projectiles. At supersonic speeds a laminar skin
of air molecules forms around the nose and sides of the bullet, increasing the apparent
surface area. Think of it as a sail, which allows increased loading from deflective wind forces
resulting in greater wind drift. No change in the mass of the bullet, only apparent surface area.

I think....maybe. :rolleyes:
 
#54 ·
We have issues with Richardson Ground Squirrels coming to the bird feeder on the back porch. I live on 10 heavily wooded acres with no near neighbors and my wife has Ruger MIII competition model with a holographic sight. I shoot them off the bird feeder at about 10 feet using a good lot of Center X. Crack the side door quietly just enough to get the barrel through. It took a lot of clicks to get it sighted in at 10 feet. To me they are tougher than prairie dogs but a good solid hit and they still curl up.

BTW I just finished hand loads for my new .221 Fireball built on a Remington 700 action. with a 24" medium varmint Lilja barrel. Again custom stock pillar bedded with a Timmeny trigger set to about 2 pounds. Now I can shoot a bit further than 90 yards.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Math nerds: if anyone is curious about wind drift and has a little time on his or her hands...try running the hornady Ballistics calculator or a similar program. I assume most programs have very similar math. Set up with one bullet definition (i.e. 40 gr .22 bullet at 0.13 BC) If you start at 400 fps and go up over 2000 fps , 100 fps at a time, you get a good look at what happens around the speed of sound. Write or plot the numbers. I don't know if the physics and math are perfect, but the results make sense. Wind drift looks to be lowest at velocities below 1200 fps and also lower as velocities get above 1900 fps if applicable. For center-fire bullets, Sierra publishes different bc numbers for their bullets at different velocities. Very interesting number for round nose bullets.
 
#58 · (Edited)
I've been digging and reading for several months now.
Ever since I sent 50 at 200 with Eley Contact and Eley Force.
Same bullets, one subsonic, one supersonic, similar results.
Started me questioning the effects of supersonic transition on the 22lr.
The only actual study done with the 22lr is this one...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zutVBoruUajY48xr3YGAG_oD_pMjOEO9/view?usp=sharing

Page 11, Conclusions: paragraph 5...



What does that last line read? :rolleyes:

Supersonic transition and the 22lr, in the lab, results show "insignificant effect on accuracy". :eek:

So if the transition isn't the real problem with hi-v 22lr ammo, what is? Poorly made cartridges? Hmmmmm...could be. :D
 
#59 ·
It says in the abstract of the Army report that no significant difference in aeroballistic characteristics due to rifle or ammunition brand could be found.

I didn't read further to see what they consider significant. Competitive precision shooters seem to think it is significant otherwise why would they all use SV ammo?
 
#60 · (Edited)
Because no one manufactures high quality hi-v 22lr.
Seriously, if all that's available is poorly made bulk hi-v
that has an ES of 100 fps per box of 50, would you use it?
The transition is a convenient excuse for poor results with hi-v 22lr.
The reality is that the actual cause of the cr*ppy trajectories is cartridge defects
due to poor quality control on the factory production line.
Make it fast, make it cheap, sell as much as possible.
Most folks will never know the difference.

Can you name any high quality hi-v 22lr?
Federal? That's just funny.
CCI? Nope, hunting and plinking ammo.
Aguila? Hah!
Armscor? Nah.
Fiocchi? Relabeled CCI.
Winchester? Bwaaaaaaa-Haaaaaaa-Haaaaaa-Haaaaaaa!
Browning? Relabeled Winchester. :eek:

When no one makes high quality hi-v 22lr, you can't use it.
The test run by McCoy used custom manufactured special ordered hi-v 22lr from Eley and RWS.
Custom runs specifically for the research lab.
Results showed high quality hi-v and SV 22lr are both accurate rounds.
SV shows slightly less wind drift.
 
#61 ·
I used to get excellent accuracy results with Winchester Power Points (1280 fps) back when I bought the stuff made in Australia years ago. I could easily print .2" groups at 50 yards with several of my rifles but at 100 it was inconsistent at best. I would assume this is because of the dreaded "transition" shift, but I may never know. The new Power Point ammo is made in Illinois and I have found it just doesn't come close to the same accuracy I got from the Australian made product in the same rifles. Still acceptable for minute or squirrel shooting most of the time, but frustrating on paper..
SV doesn't give me this same frustration level, even though it may or may not be as accurate. At least most SV I shoot is consistent in how it shoots. Either a rifle likes it or it doesn't- doesn't seem to matter the range...

Bob
 
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