. . . , on the subject of AR's, . . . - Page 4 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:37 PM
Mike Clark

Join Date: 
Feb 2010
Posts: 
305
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)


Log in to see fewer ads
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go4guts View Post
They are pure genius mechanically.
Bingo. IMO, Stoner was a bit ahead of his time in his design.

HiPower competition, specifically service rifle has driven my appreciation of the AR to a pretty high level.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:43 PM
WallaceGA

Join Date: 
Jan 2017
Posts: 
15
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in IN View Post
I'm sure you know how much trolling is disliked on forums, so you really shouldn't suggest that a long time member might be, even if "mild."

Next is the rule (which you agreed to when you joined) against cursing or using asterisks to substitute for cursing. Mods aren't supposed to edit posts (to avoid unintentionally changing intent) but delete them if they break a rule. I hate doing that since you put so much into it, but also too lazy to copy it for you to edit and paste back. ( If a word turns into asterisks, you KNOW that's a banned word and absolutely no reason to deliberately leave it.) So please edit out the asterisks before another Mod comes along and deletes the entire post. Or I if I come back this evening and still see it there.
I understand the rules. Mild "trolling" is sometimes a way to poke and stir the pot a bit when content gets a little dry (which happens time to time on the many other forums I am on). More or less done out of good spirit knowing a few in the crowd will "take the bait", but all in good fun. I am aware that real, focused trolling is frowned upon. There was no intent to imply OP was trying to be a real troll. I felt he posted it to elicit some interesting responses. Perhaps I mis-judged the tone of this forum...


As to your comment about typing around a censor, it was a acronym, not even a curse word. I have never seen it censored on any forum other than here? When I typed the post, the text did not change it to asterisks, must have only changed once published and I did not notice it then. Since then, going through my post, I see other typos I need to fix while I am at it.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:44 PM
Mike Clark

Join Date: 
Feb 2010
Posts: 
305
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WallaceGA View Post
I sense mild trolling by the creation of this thread, but I will still play...

Yes, AR's get a tad boring and have flooded the market with an overwhelming selection. I think literally all of my gun enthusiast friends have one and many of my non-firearms enthusiast friends do as well.

By "definition", AR assembly does require "gunsmithing", although you do not really need the comprehensive skills or equipment of a master gunsmith to complete assembly of one from pre-made components sans drilling/reaming for the install of a A1/A2 FSB.

As to your YouTube comment. This always cracks me up. If I had a dollar for every time I had to fix or help guide someone through a poorly executed build after they watched YouTube videos from a shad tree "gunsmith", I might have enough cash for a descent amount of range ammo. In my limited time of assisting at shop with a gunsmithing department and my own personal experience, I have seen all kinds of *** moments from people who thought AR's were just something you could assemble with pliers, vice grips, painters tape, harbor freight punches and a hammer....oh, don't forget the Amazon AR "armorers" wrench too.

Below are just some of the problems I have seen off the top of my head.

*Gas block mis-aligned
*Barrel not dimpled if using a set screw type gas block
*No red loctite on gas block set screws
*Finishing nail used to retain gas tube in gas block instead of correct roll pin
*Hammer spring in backwards
*Gas tube literally forced "installed" upside down
*Broken lower receiver trigger guard tabs from not supporting them while drifting in the roll pin
*Castle nuts "tightened" and installed without staking or Aeroshell
*Muzzle devices installed upside down or barely half a turn on a crush washer
*Sights installed backwards
*Nails used to pin a FSB instead of taper pins
*Wrong length gas tube installed and the person wondered why their BCG wouldn't "fit" into the receiver
*Magazine catch only installed 1-2 turns
*Monolithic type rail "installed" without aligning the rail with the receiver
*Gas key on BCG not properly staked and leaking → wrong fasteners used as well
*Bolt catch roll pin installed improperly splitting the lower receiver (just came up on another site)
*Bargain bin barrels with loose barrel extensions
*Firing pin left out of the BCG and action getting locked up
*Disconnector spring not installed
*Action lubed with wheel bearing grease (alot of it) causing the rifle to short stroke/not cycle
*Rifle/standard/a3 feed ramp barrel extensions used on an M4 feed ramp receiver (not saying it will 100% not cycle, but could cause and has caused malfunctions)
*Incorrect SR25 length carbine receiver extension installed on an AR10 and used with the shorter DPMS length buffer causing receiver damage and a locked action
*FCG installed that was out of spec allowing the safety to be engaged decoked locking the carrier in a mid stroke position due to hammer/disconnect interference

Above were all things YouTube videos can show you or do not keep you from doing. Some are defective parts that joe blow has no idea to know what to look for otherwise, but YouTube said it was "ok".

I am all for people learning firearms more in depth than just stuffing mags and blasting paper targets, but there needs to be some respect and discipline for proper procedures. These things can seriously injure or kill you if not careful and diligent.

Most of those claiming AR are simply lego's are the ones I fond that typically skip most TM requirements, manufacture recommendations, and general proper assembly techniques (or have just assembled a lower and pinned a complete upper to it claiming it was "built") → Aeroshell 33ms on barrel nut threads, proper torque of barrel and castle nuts, correct install method to properly mate barrel nut/receiver threads, lack of aeroshell on castle nuts, lacking proper staking of end plates/castle nuts (x2) per the TM, lack the thought to inspect gas keys for proper staking and the correct serrated and grade SHCS for gas key installation, lack of forethought of proper gas port (barrel) selection to cater to the rifles intended purpose → primarily suppressed, diet of mostly weak, commercial pressure ammo, etc...Lack of forethought to ideal gas system length for given barrel lengths. Lack of proper buffer weight selection to mitigate some of the carrier bounce certain rifles can suffer from and to help control "tune" the recoil impulse. Lack of thought to replace the el-cheapo gas block set screws many come with, to be swapped fro proper knurled tip types, and as already mentioned, lack of barrel dimpling and use of red, 272 loctite. Lack of knowledge to know which gas blocks are designed to be aligned with consideration of end cap spacing from the shoulder of the barrel gas block journal or not.

The above rambling can continue to go on and on, but most are ignorant of or simply do not care. Their rifle goes bang for the 3-4 mags of Tula they pump through it with their buddies every few months or so, if even that. Any "malfunction" is written off as "must have been a crappy mag" or " must be this ammo". In reality, most don't even shoot theirs enough to really demonstrate how skipping some of the above mentions items affect reliability in situations where a rifle gets stressed and heated like with FA and or FA/suppressed rapid fire. Most will say, "I am not doing mag dumps with mine or going to Iraq with it, so I don't think I will have to worry about that", but them preach about how simple they are to assemble and how reliable their home build is, when they have yet to actually shoot the rifle in a manor that would exhibit failures from lack or proper assembly.

All that said, I have also seen many rifles that did skip alot of the basic fundamentals of proper AR assembly and run just fine, even during some harsh abuse. This is not the common outcome, but you certainly eliminate many of the "what ifs" by simply doing it the right way, and passing over the YouTube video that teaches you that you don't really need all those extra steps, just screw and hammer it together and go shoot.
No broken ears on the trigger guard hole?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #49  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:53 PM
WallaceGA

Join Date: 
Jan 2017
Posts: 
15
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Clark View Post
No broken ears on the trigger guard hole?
Oh yes, it is listed there. I call them trigger guard roll pin tabs.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:11 PM
dbmjr1's Avatar
dbmjr1 is online now
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Jan 2008
Location: 
Armorer to the Boogaloo
Posts: 
1,587
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Working in a LGS, I've seen most of those mistakes you've listed. I must say, Louisianians must be a smidgen more intelligent, as I've yet to see a buffer tube installed upside down.
__________________
Don



Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:23 PM
Blackwolfe's Avatar
Blackwolfe is online now
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! Appleseed Member

Join Date: 
Oct 2008
Location: 
Sunset Coast MI
Posts: 
1,080
TPC Rating: 
100% (11)
WallaceGA.
Thanks for posting some of the pit falls in regards to home built ARs. What TM manual are you referring to for building, and where can you get it?

I don't think the Aeroshell33MS grease is available from Shell anymore and has been replaced by Aeroshell63.

I have never built an AR, but hope to build a couple soon. Have acquired most if not all the parts. Your statement, "Lack of forethought to ideal gas system length for given barrel lengths. Lack of proper buffer weight selection to mitigate some of the carrier bounce certain rifles can suffer from and to help control "tune" the recoil impulse." has got me thinking about this subject as it is confusing to me. Can you elaborate more on the subject?

Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:40 PM
Mike Clark

Join Date: 
Feb 2010
Posts: 
305
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmjr1 View Post
Working in a LGS, I've seen most of those mistakes you've listed. I must say, Louisianians must be a smidgen more intelligent, as I've yet to see a buffer tube installed upside down.
One guy in La did break the front take down pin tab off the lower receiver. So that smidgen is at risk. I don't recall how it happened. There is always the hope that either it was a mfgr defect or maybe just maybe he moved here for the food and culture.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:49 PM
Blackwolfe's Avatar
Blackwolfe is online now
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! Appleseed Member

Join Date: 
Oct 2008
Location: 
Sunset Coast MI
Posts: 
1,080
TPC Rating: 
100% (11)
Took me a long time to warm up to the AR as I'm kind of and old school wood and steel type. Have a liking for M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, M14 and the Ruger Mini 14. Not trying to start any Mini 14/AR battles, but I do like the Mini and have owned several.

I now owns several ARs in a couple of configuration and a few extra uppers. Have a Rock River and a Ruger. A lightweight AIM/ Spikes and TacSol .22 upper.

Pretty simple configurations as I don't hang all the latest tactical gear off the cheese grater rails. I do have a couple of red dot type sights to use. If I chose to, I could get the high dollar AR and all the latest tacticool gear but I prefer to apply the KISS method as I am a simple man.

I have most the parts to build an AR or two and hope to do that soon, and see where it could become addictive.

The AR may not be for everyone and that is OK. I have no interest at this time for high dollar, one hole, bench rest guns, but others do and that's great for them.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:34 PM
dbmjr1's Avatar
dbmjr1 is online now
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Jan 2008
Location: 
Armorer to the Boogaloo
Posts: 
1,587
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Clark View Post
One guy in La did break the front take down pin tab off the lower receiver. So that smidgen is at risk. I don't recall how it happened. There is always the hope that either it was a mfgr defect or maybe just maybe he moved here for the food and culture.
LOL Like you say. Most likely a tourist who never left. However: Even he did not install the buffer tube upside down.
__________________
Don



Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-15-2017, 08:11 PM
WallaceGA

Join Date: 
Jan 2017
Posts: 
15
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolfe View Post
WallaceGA.
Thanks for posting some of the pit falls in regards to home built ARs. What TM manual are you referring to for building, and where can you get it?

I don't think the Aeroshell33MS grease is available from Shell anymore and has been replaced by Aeroshell63.

I have never built an AR, but hope to build a couple soon. Have acquired most if not all the parts. Your statement, "Lack of forethought to ideal gas system length for given barrel lengths. Lack of proper buffer weight selection to mitigate some of the carrier bounce certain rifles can suffer from and to help control "tune" the recoil impulse." has got me thinking about this subject as it is confusing to me. Can you elaborate more on the subject?

Thank you.
The TM, or "technical manual" can be found readily online.

The comments about gas port, gas system length and buffer selection are all relative to what your purpose is with the rifle.

Most people opt to just find a descent deal on an AR barrel/upper without any thought into what that manufacturer developed or not into the design. Many will see 16" barrels, associate that with the carbine gas system of a Colt 6920/6720 and buy away....which is fine for 95% of users. They will probably not notice or care about the felt recoil pulse or fact that their rifle is probably over gassed, not horribly most of the time, but generally over gassed. The other 5% know about this and seek components to remedy this.

Since there is well over a 30% decrease in gas pressure from a rifle length gas system compared to a pistol length, the rifles carrier sees far less stress when cycled in a more traditional rifle length gas system. This may not seem like a big deal, but remember, a carbine gas system can generally see around 25K PSI of pressure. This is alot of stress on mechanical components and can lead to a more harsh impulse and wear/tear on componenets. Speaking in generalities, the longer the gas system, typically the less harsh and more reliable the rifle is........taking into consideration gas port size and barrel length. You can have too little dwell time, and that would result in unreliable function. The "technology" is found in the balance of all of this to get the softest shooting rifle, while retaining reliability → longest gas system possible, smallest gas port possible while retaining enough dwell time and pressure to reliably cycle the action.

What I personally look for is the following for gas length systems:

Pistol length gas systems: I have zero interest in. Typically WAY over gassed and normally found on less than 10" barrels which I will not go shorter than.

Carbine length gas: Found on many 10-16" barrels. Not my preference unless a 10.5-12.5", as that is the shortest barrel I am interested in shooting 5.56 from and carbine gas system seems to work well with this length. I do not like carbine gas systems on a 16" though. Again, that doesn't make them "wrong". There are 100's of thousands out there that work just fine, just not my cup of tea although one of my first AR's (which I still own, is a 16" carbine gas system)

Mid-length: Found on many 14.5-16" offerings: Definitely a more favored choice for this barrel length. These "typically" yield the softer impulse depending on gas port size and seem to mitigate gas pressures when shooting suppressed better. Again, depending on gas port size.

Intermediate: Great for 16" rifles, but developed by VLTOR for 18.5". This system yields an even softer impulse yet retains great reliability. Can even be found on the more uncommon 17" Noveske offerings.

KAC SR25/SR15 Mod1/2: Found only on SR25 and SR15 KAC rifles, this is a proprietary system that is ≈.4" shorter than intermediate, but longer than mid-length. My SR15 Mod 2 has a very nice, soft impulse and also has the additional benefit of KAC's AN style fitting for the gas tube to gas block installation and threaded gas block journal for a very sealed gas system.

Rifle length: Probably my favorite if I am going to use 18-20" barrels. This is the longest and hands down, softest shooting of all gas systems. I have more rifles length gas systems than any other at the moment in the AR platform.


Ok, so gas ports. Typically, the smallest you can go while retaining reliable cycling is ideal. It is rare you will find this spec listed when purchasing a barrel as companies that have a good bit of R&D will not just share this openly, although some will. Most of the time they dont list it, frankly, due to most consumers lack the knowledge to understand how it may affect that particular barrels performance. You can use a gauge pin set to measure it though once you have the barrel in hand. This is another rabbit hole that I will not derail this thread further into to go into as much detail. CRANE specs are available through some desen't research on most popular gas length systems.

Companies like Sionics, SOLGW, KAC, BCM, and a few others have done the research to help properly size their ports per their R&D results. Sionic's even offer a reduced sized gas port to properly deal with the extra pressures of shooting primarily suppressed.

In general, port sizes with descent manufacturers will range from the .061-.073"-ish range on the carbine gas size to .080-.0995" for the rifle end. The problem comes in when you have manufacturers like PSA, Diamondback, etc..hogging the ports out so that most consumers can shoot their cheap, low-pressure .223 55gr Tula/PMC reliably. This could be a good thing for many consumers, but for those that shoot quality, match ammo/reloads or regular NATO pressure cartridges, you will find this creates an over gassed rifle, even more so when suppressed. This may not cause any problems for the keyboard commando or weekend warrior, but those who are picky about their rifles or competitively shot may notice excess gas and want to correctly remedy the problem without the use of inherently unreliable adj gas blocks.

Finally buffers. If you have the above topics in good spec and properly configured, this will not be much of a topic for you. Most people end up using very heavy buffers and adjustable gas blocks to band aid fix the root problem of incorrect gas port sizing. In general, you will find that buffer selection will really only yields its reliability improvements during FA fire. Most (would say all, but you never know) semi-automatic users can not manipulate the trigger quickly enough to cause a mis-fire from bolt bounce. Heavier buffers simply eliminate the bolt bounce for over gassed rifles and or heavier contoured barrels that promote bounce more than lighter weight profile offerings.

I mainly just use an H buffer (1 tungsten, 2 steel weight) carbine buffer on my non rifle length firearms. This has yielded reliable cycling without adding too much reciprocating mass to the rifle.

Many rifles come with a carbine buffer (3 steel weights, no tungsten) and these can be just fine as long as your gas system (port/gas system length) are appropriately sized.

The other offerings are H2/H3 (2 tungsten, 1 steel or 3 tungsten weights). If you want these, then great, but the average consumer would not see any benefit from this weighted buffer, they are just adding additional reciprocating mass.

The last is a rifle length buffer. This is the original, 1st weight filled buffer for this platform. Works well with the rifle length gas system and exhibits virtually no bolt bounce, even during FA fire. The inherit weight of most tradition 20" rifles in conjunction with rifle length gas systems and proper port size yield a very soft shooting rifle.

You also have hydraulic buffers (which no one needs and are not that reliable). They were initially developed to slow FA fire rates, but did not hold up well, and seals would fail. I just have no use for them.

Lastly, there is the A5 style systems by VLTOR, also offered by BCM. This is a blend of rifle and carbine technology that is another topic by itself. Excellent system, but I am getting tired and dont feel like typing another novel to explain this system at the moment.

There are other shorter style buffer systems, and some plastic offerings for race gun applications (also plastic was used by Colt years ago to save costs, but have quit using them shortly after inception in the late 90's). Again, topic for another day, and one I don't care to discuss as its a very very niche market that requires these.


Any who, if you are still reading, I hope this helps your understanding on some of the more detailed aspect of the AR platform that you had in question...
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-16-2017, 07:34 AM
dbmjr1's Avatar
dbmjr1 is online now
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Jan 2008
Location: 
Armorer to the Boogaloo
Posts: 
1,587
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Pistol length gas systems are necessary if you expect to cycle sub-sonic .300 blk out.
__________________
Don



Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-16-2017, 10:59 AM
WallaceGA

Join Date: 
Jan 2017
Posts: 
15
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbmjr1 View Post
Pistol length gas systems are necessary if you expect to cycle sub-sonic .300 blk out.


My posts are in regards to 5.56/223
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:29 AM
IHMSA80x80's Avatar
IHMSA80x80
US Air Force Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Oct 2004
Location: 
Kentucky
Posts: 
8,958
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WallaceGA View Post
My $.02, which is probably not even worth that...
After all that info, I am further resolved not to get one.

Not being critical, that is great info. Some of the guys at our range should read that. Every week I see them with their new home-built AR's and they don't work the first day. Then all the other AR eggspurts gather around and spend most of the day trying to fix it.
__________________
No man is an island. Some men are peninsulas.

≡✪≡
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-16-2017, 05:24 PM
Steve in IN's Avatar
Steve in IN
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Moderator
Join Date: 
Aug 2005
Location: 
Evansville, IN
Posts: 
10,285
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
I can see moving this thread out of Rimfire Community, where it'll eventually get pruned. Wallace's comments are really too good to lose.
__________________
Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib, und Gesang der bleibt ein Narr sein Lebenlang. [Press 1 for English]
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-16-2017, 10:57 PM
JMKnowles's Avatar
JMKnowles
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2013
Location: 
Southeast Texas Coast
Posts: 
566
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Yes, I've learned a lot in this thread.

Thanks to all who offered AR tech advice & knowledge.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:36 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x