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Old 01-30-2017, 09:45 AM
redlightrich

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Broken in Vs VQ sear. What I found and thoughts



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Hello all. I have a few MK pistols. The 2 I am discussing here are a Stainless Target made in June of 2015, which is stock, except for LCI removal. The disco and factory sear are in place.

This gun has near 9000 rounds thru it. I like it alot, but don't love it.

The next one is a 4" blue "standard" model. With this, I have about 600 rounds thru it. It was made Oct of 2012. This gun came from the factory missing the mainspring hammer strut cup. I fixed that, then added a VQ sear and crapola disco bushing by one of the major suppliers of MK pistol parts, who I will not name. The bushing is too loose in the hammer for my liking.

Anyway, I did not take a "before" measurement on the trigger, as I should have. My guess is it was near 5# or so. This gun is extremely accurate. I actually shoot it more accurately than my 5.5 inch target.

Last night, being bored, I took my MK's out, and fished out my cheap Wheeler trigger gauge. I use this gauge as a reference, as opposed to actual numbers.

The factory Stainless Ruger showed a pull of 3.5#. Not bad, a nicely broken in pistol!!

The less used model, with the VQ sear and crummy disco bushing was at 2.5#. It certainly felt lighter than the stock one. To be fair, I am changing out the disco bushing as soon as a proper fitting one arrives.

I have been reading reviews ( one of the large suppliers has reviews available on most of their products) and many said the factory number was 6# before, and 1.3/4 after. These must be new unfired, or low round count guns?

I am going to check again after I install a better bushing.

Yes, the VQ sear is nice. It has the finish attention that the factory sear lacks. Keep in mind, these are mass produced pistols, and if they put the level of detail into finishing that the aftermarket does, the cost of a Mk pistol would rival a 1911.

Personally, I am usually happy with a factory trigger. I try to learn each gun, and as I use them, they break in better.

I bought the bushing a long time ago, and never installed it, so I had that laying around.

I needed to order a 3 dollar part from one of the larger distributors, so to average down the shipping, I ordered some small items. The VQ sear was one of them.

The VQ sear certainly works to lower trigger pull weight. If you desire even lighter, Wolff has a lighter spring for about 4 dollars and shipping.

My guess is the sear and spring and a GOOD bushing will bring you near 90% of the way towards a great trigger, for near 50 dollars. The complete kits are near 150 dollars. Only the most discerning shooters will need the extra 10%.

For my uses, I never need or want an "ultra light" trigger. My modified Kimber 1911 is about as light as I would want. Now, that I think about it, I will measure that pull too.

Other people seem to want a trigger so light, that you begin to question the safety of it.

Using a gunsmith to do the installation of these parts is a good way to be sure you have a safe firearm when finished. They can see issues that amateurs can't or may not. No, these are not hard swaps. However, I learned a long time ago, using an expert makes things smoother. An unsafe trigger is a hazard for everyone.

Thanks for reading my rambling. I will post the result of the trigger weight after I install a proper fitting disco delete bushing. Personally, I am curious how it may affect it.

Rich
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:49 AM
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Rich I have to ask , are you just plinking or you practicing for competition ? I wish I could shoot that many rounds , not that I don't have the ammo i guess it's time I don't have :-) by the way think for the write up, I agree the sear and bushings are all about a guy neeeds for nice trigger pull
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:31 PM
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I have to agree with you that the sear and mag disconnect bushing bring it to the 90% better mark. But I was able to feel a little bit of creep before let off still shooting at little bitty targets when slow and deliberate. I swapped the bushing out for a VQ Mkll hammer bushing. The difference between them was amazing. I have to say that switch brought another 5+ percent to the package. I wish I could have had a trigger pull gauge to compare the differences between each step of the way.
Good to see your results.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:51 PM
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Yes, the VQ sear is nice. It has the finish attention that the factory sear lacks. Keep in mind, these are mass produced pistols, and if they put the level of detail into finishing that the aftermarket does, the cost of a Mk pistol would rival a 1911.




Rich[/QUOTE]

I can buy a VQ accurizing kit for $120. Subtract the cost to manufacture the OEM parts currently being used and I think it is safe to say that Ruger could provide a good trigger for an additional 50-60 bucks. And their lawyers would be very unhappy.
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 22shooters View Post
I can buy a VQ accurizing kit for $120. Subtract the cost to manufacture the OEM parts currently being used and I think it is safe to say that Ruger could provide a good trigger for an additional 50-60 bucks. And their lawyers would be very unhappy.
The sear and trigger are the useful parts of the kit and should cut that price by half.
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:22 AM
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The sear and trigger are the useful parts of the kit and should cut that price by half.
Agreed. The above parts are all you need to improve your trigger...

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Old 01-31-2017, 01:56 PM
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Can't beat the experience involved with a "long time" learning process.
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:54 PM
22shooters
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Agreed. The above parts are all you need to improve your trigger...

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I am not trying to improve a trigger. I was making the point that Ruger could provide a good trigger for a relatively low price increase. But that is something they are not going to do. The last Mark I acquired got a sear and hammer bushing. The difference between it and the one with a full kit is not much.
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 22shooters View Post
I am not trying to improve a trigger. I was making the point that Ruger could provide a good trigger for a relatively low price increase. But that is something they are not going to do. The last Mark I acquired got a sear and hammer bushing. The difference between it and the one with a full kit is not much.
So, might you agree the addition of a VA sear did improve your Mk series pistola's trigger significantly?

The point of Ruger offering "a good trigger for a relatively low price increase" is actually a moot point that has been discussed ad nauseum at RFC. As you stated it "is something they are not going to do"...

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Old 02-02-2017, 12:02 AM
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Hello all again. Just some more info for all you to do as you wish with. No I am not training for a shoot. I just like to shoot a lot. I am also fortunate enough to buy a lot of ammo. Anyway, After installing the previous mag disco bushing, I did not like how "sloppy" the hammer appeared, and I got to thinking, I wonder how "sloppy" the factory one was. So I ordered up 2 new bushings from a respected supplier. One was drop in, and one was "tight fit".
Before I attempted to try the new bushings, I reinstalled the factory arrangement, and with it, the hammer had the same side to side movement. Hmmm? I can't help but wonder if the bushing is engineered to be loose inside the hammer. Is this optimal? Probably not, but was it engineered this way? Now I am not sure. If it was, what was the reason? Larger bearing surface? Ease of production? All the above?

I put the drop in from the new supplier in the hammer, and it fit the hammer tighter than the other aftermarket bushing and the factory bushing, unfortunately, the ID ( where the hammer pin goes) was machined wrong, and the hammer pin would not install. I wrote the supplier, and hopefully he makes it right.

Then I decided to completely take my frame back to it's original state, while I wait for my new, new bushing to arrive ( I don't want to install the tight fit bushing yet, until I understand how I think it should be. I also wanted to do something that I missed before installing the parts, which was measure trigger pull. So I did it. I installed factory sear and sear spring, factory bushing and mag disco, and put it all together. Trigger pull? 4.5 pounds.. remember, this gun is a low round count. So factory components, 4.5 pound trigger, with a fairly long take up, and the VQ sear and cheap aftermarket disco bushing is 2.5 pounds, with a very short take up. I am certain most people would opt for the VQ set up, and if I didn't install the cheap disco bushing myself, I may not know any better to not trust it, keep in mind, I grabbed the hammer and rocked it side to side and noticed the slop. Would the trigger be less consistent due to the slop? Most likely yes. Could I tell, or feel it? Probably not. However, I do have a few Mk III pistols, and I am not afraid to take them apart, so I may do a tight bushing/loose bushing test side by side at some point.
One thing I do know, my Target model had a 3.5 # trigger, and I did nothing to that gun but shoot it, a lot!!! Also, I am not certain I love a really light trigger.

Stay tuned!!!
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Old 02-02-2017, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redlightrich View Post
Hello all again. Just some more info for all you to do as you wish with. No I am not training for a shoot. I just like to shoot a lot. I am also fortunate enough to buy a lot of ammo. Anyway, After installing the previous mag disco bushing, I did not like how "sloppy" the hammer appeared, and I got to thinking, I wonder how "sloppy" the factory one was. So I ordered up 2 new bushings from a respected supplier. One was drop in, and one was "tight fit".
Before I attempted to try the new bushings, I reinstalled the factory arrangement, and with it, the hammer had the same side to side movement. Hmmm? I can't help but wonder if the bushing is engineered to be loose inside the hammer. Is this optimal? Probably not, but was it engineered this way? Now I am not sure. If it was, what was the reason? Larger bearing surface? Ease of production? All the above?

I put the drop in from the new supplier in the hammer, and it fit the hammer tighter than the other aftermarket bushing and the factory bushing, unfortunately, the ID ( where the hammer pin goes) was machined wrong, and the hammer pin would not install. I wrote the supplier, and hopefully he makes it right.

Then I decided to completely take my frame back to it's original state, while I wait for my new, new bushing to arrive ( I don't want to install the tight fit bushing yet, until I understand how I think it should be. I also wanted to do something that I missed before installing the parts, which was measure trigger pull. So I did it. I installed factory sear and sear spring, factory bushing and mag disco, and put it all together. Trigger pull? 4.5 pounds.. remember, this gun is a low round count. So factory components, 4.5 pound trigger, with a fairly long take up, and the VQ sear and cheap aftermarket disco bushing is 2.5 pounds, with a very short take up. I am certain most people would opt for the VQ set up, and if I didn't install the cheap disco bushing myself, I may not know any better to not trust it, keep in mind, I grabbed the hammer and rocked it side to side and noticed the slop. Would the trigger be less consistent due to the slop? Most likely yes. Could I tell, or feel it? Probably not. However, I do have a few Mk III pistols, and I am not afraid to take them apart, so I may do a tight bushing/loose bushing test side by side at some point.
One thing I do know, my Target model had a 3.5 # trigger, and I did nothing to that gun but shoot it, a lot!!! Also, I am not certain I love a really light trigger.

Stay tuned!!!
No, the sloppy fit of the hammer bushing is not, by any means optimal. Consider, that a "reputable" aftermarket hammer bushing used for the Ruger Mark III pistols was initially designed to do TWO things. ONE: Replace the magazine disco parts to eliminate the "magazine in/magazine out" routine involved with disassembly and then, TWO: Tighten up the union of the replacement hammer bushing in the hammer, eliminate any, and all of the wobble, that you found, between the hammer bushing and the hammer bushing pin, along with any side to side drift of the hammer bushing while inside the hammer, so that you would gain a much more consistent trigger pull action, and trigger pull weight.

Now, granted, there are some folks who only shoot for recreation fun and who aren't concerned with the consistent trigger pull aspect and are happier than a clam that the lady on the phone talked really, really nice to them. That doesn't make your pistol shoot, or function any better.

The Ruger Mark III can indeed be upgraded to a much better functioning pistol. That's been proven time and time again, here at S.G.W. LLC and from the customer responses I've received who are very satisfied with the outcome. I for one, will surely stay tuned to this thread to see what your final outcome entails.
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by redlightrich View Post
My guess is the sear and spring and a GOOD bushing will bring you near 90% of the way towards a great trigger, for near 50 dollars. The complete kits are near 150 dollars. Only the most discerning shooters will need the extra 10%.

Rich
You're right in how to take a "blah" or "so-so" trigger to a level most people would prefer. I'm glad you're experimenting with different combinations. IMO, that's the best way to learn what each part can do for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indigo22 View Post
I have to agree with you that the sear and mag disconnect bushing bring it to the 90% better mark. But I was able to feel a little bit of creep before let off still shooting at little bitty targets when slow and deliberate. I swapped the bushing out for a VQ Mkll hammer bushing. The difference between them was amazing. I have to say that switch brought another 5+ percent to the package.
It took a good bit of convincing to get Indigo to try a different bushing, but the reduced creep is worth it. I'm trying to stay out of the bushing minefield on this thread, but I do have another observation that relates to sears.

A while back, there was a heated discussion between gunsmiths about the best way to get that last 5% of a great trigger. The topic was about eliminating the last bit of creep. So I tried both ways.

In my MKII, I added a breakaway angle to my reworked factory sear. And in my MKIII (with VQ sear), I reduced the depth of the hammer notch. Both have MKII hammers and the same starting position for the sears.

On the surface, they seem to be the same -
1) no pretravel
2) 2.2# pull weight
3) consistent trigger engagement

But they feel very different to shoot. Both are excellent and produce high accuracy. I wish everyone could try both of them side-by-side.

The "breakaway" MKII has a release that is SMOOOOOTH.
The "reduced" MKIII has a release that is KRISPPP!!!

Deciding which is better is like choosing between KFC original recipe, or extra crispy. I really like both!
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Old 02-03-2017, 10:01 AM
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Hello SGW Gunsmith and Test Engineer, I have read many threads of yours, and they helped bring me here. I believe you both have very valid points. SGW, I can't help but agree with your thought that a better fitting interface between sear and hammer would yield a much more consistent result.
I became interested in this when you both did a bearing in the hammer!!! I thought that was a terrific idea and test.

I am starting to think that Ruger did indeed design this gun, to less than optimal results for many reasons.
1) Mass produced and speed of assembly
2) Satisfy the legal team and shut up California
3) Cost reduction

If Ruger wanted to tighten the hammer sear interface, they could have easily eliminated the bushing altogether. Simply bore a 5/32 hole in the hammer and use no bushing. On the right side of the hammer they could have added a "step" washer also with a 5/32 hole and Viola!!, bushing clearance eliminated. Yes I understand that on the Mk III, the bushing now serves to hold the mag disco and spring, but lets go back and look at the Mk I and II and the evolution. The II had no mag disco, yet the bushing was present ( although slightly different).

No, the above paragraph does not make me believe that the factory arrangement is right. It just may be adequate for most hobby shooters. The very experienced shooters looking for the best and most consistent trigger will need to upgrade. I do think Ruger is a great platform to start with though.

The "reputable seller" I spoke about yesterday, has decided to send me another "drop in" bushing, to replace the one I received. We have concluded the inner hole where the hammer pin goes thru is undersized on the small side. As a point of note, this sellers bushing "dropped in" the hammer with a much nicer ( less sloppy ) feel than the Major retailer's fit. I intend to measure them tonight and post the result. The Respected seller's certainly has a larger OD, but I am not sure by how much. If I don't forget, I will bring home my super accurate mic, that is accurate to the tenth ( .0001) . My super quick easy cheapo caliper reads in .0005 increments and probably is not accurate enough for this.

This posting was created simply as knowledge for anyone to use as they wish.

I will update this post as I move along. I want to thank SGW and Test, as both of their posts in the past have bought my curiosity to this point of comparisons.

They both make very valid points and have way more understanding about Ruger Mk pistols than most.

Kind regards

Rich
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Old 02-03-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by redlightrich View Post
If Ruger wanted to tighten the hammer sear interface, they could have easily eliminated the bushing altogether. Simply bore a 5/32 hole in the hammer and use no bushing. On the right side of the hammer they could have added a "step" washer also with a 5/32 hole and Viola!!, bushing clearance eliminated. Yes I understand that on the Mk III, the bushing now serves to hold the mag disco and spring, but lets go back and look at the Mk I and II and the evolution. The II had no mag disco, yet the bushing was present ( although slightly different).
The earliest drawings I've seen show the bushing on the wrong side of the hammer:



I've idly speculated about why use a bushing and I suppose there may be a difference in hardening.

BTW, the manual I got with a new T512 in '74 (A100 grip frame) had both grip frames listed, but no indication of the A100 grip frame on the exploded diagram, which is identical to the one above.

Last edited by edlmann; 02-08-2017 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:37 AM
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That is funny, indeed the orientation of the bushing is incorrect in the drawing. I would love to see the Ruger blueprints, with tolerances so I could gain a better understanding of their limits and intentions.

A quick update. The "reputable seller" did indeed replace the "drop in" bushing, as the first one I received was not bored properly. The hammer pin would not go in.
No issues, no drama. Just a few questions. He asked me to test with a drill bit, and report back. Two days later, a bushing appeared.
So far, he gets an "A" for customer service. I have not fully decided on the bushing itself, but being I paid for these, and this is a knowledge bank write up, I will be as honest as I can. I agree with another poster who said that one bushing seller probably makes zero profit. I would think he is making very little, if any profit from these bushings, if he places any value at all on his time.

I did find another interesting observation last night.

I ordered a spare hammer which is supposed to be a new "take off" from a seller on flea day. He must build race guns as he has a lot of take off parts.

Anyway, my "tight fit" bushing, which will not even start in my other Mk hammers actually dropped into this hammer. It was a very nice, tight, almost plug fit, but it did have clearance, as I was able to spin it in the hammer bore without any effort. This tells me ( assuming the seller doesn't monkey around with the parts he sells) that Ruger has a pretty wide tolerance for the hammer hole ( among other things).

If I am correct here, I now understand why SGW and other reputable Mk Smith's will only install the bushing themselves. They want to ensure that the fit is good.

Hopefully in the next few days, I will have time to reinstall the bushing. I will take measurements, and document my observations. Yes I am aware there is info on this subject already, but more info simply adds to the knowledge bank.

I will update us soon

Rich
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