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Old 04-28-2016, 10:46 AM
JTPinTX
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10 shot groups



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It seems I remember reading at some point about how as the number of shots in a group went up, that statistically speaking, it would increase by a certain percentage. Like an average 5 shot group would be 1.37 times larger than the average 3 shot group with the same ammunition, or something like that.

Now, the games we shoot here are all fun, and that is great. I have done it and enjoyed it. However, now-days it seems I do much more practical style shooting. Because of that I am much more interested in how a particular ammunition holds up for 10, or even 20 rounds.

I am in the process of re-tuning some rifles after adding suppressors, doing some cerakote work, and that kind of thing. In the coming weeks and months I plan to do a whole bunch of ammunition testing with what I have stockpiled, and also with what I can get my hands on fairly easy.

I think my standard test is going to be 10 round groups at 50 yards. My goal is to split ammunition into groups, whether it be for plinking, precision work, hunting etc. I guess my question is, what accuracy standard would you guys consider good for a decently tweaked, but not super tricked out, 10/22 at 50 yards? 1/2" for 10 would be flat screaming in my mind, and probably not realistic except for maybe an exceptional load on a good day. I think more realistic would be 3/4", with anything under 1" being acceptable for any but the most demanding work. Bear in mind the vast majority of ammunition I will be shooting is not expensive, match grade stuff. SV is one of the better things I will be testing, even though there will be some good quality random odds and ends in there as well.

So just out of curiousity, and to promote some discussion, what are you guys thoughts on this project? The goal is to find good quality, moderate priced ammo.
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Old 04-28-2016, 12:55 PM
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Being a Quality professional for 27 years and dealing with (and teaching) Statistical Process Control aka SPC I got interested in what was the ideal group size to statistically insure what I was doing meant something.

Years ago either Rifle or Handloader magazines (both by the same publishing company and, to me, two of the very best magazines ever). My collection is almost complete back to the mid 1970s. Anyway they interview some of the top people in the field of statistics and the number they came up with as the most meaningful group size was SEVEN. Yes 10 will show a slightly better accuracy of the research and 5 is more practical but the guys that know this stuff like Dr. Ken Oehler of the famous line of chronographs came up with SEVEN.

Handloader and/or Rifle also saw that there was not that big of a difference and went back to testing with 5 shot groups Some of their testers had fallen intop the lazy habit of 3 shot groups that can be very deceiving. Remember, too, that you will learn more from 5 five shot groups than you will one 25 shot group. Just the way it works.

In SPC you would need 5 five shot groups just to plot you first point on the typical graph!! That would be to measure 5 shot groups for size and then average 5 five shot groups
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:14 PM
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If I don't know in 4 five shot groups I ain't never gonna know until I shoot a different lot #. JMO YMMV ETC
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Old 04-28-2016, 02:25 PM
JTPinTX
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I had read the same on 7 shot groups before. IIRC that is kind of where the point of diminishing returns lies. For me it is just easier to load up a 10 round mag and shoot a group. Also, the single 10 round group is mainly to decided if I am going to cull that ammo and use if for plinking, or throw it into the "good" pile for further testing.

Take for instance Stingers. I had a few of them, a 10 shot group with them went into 2"! Which is about what I have come to expect from them, I will never buy any more. They have shot bad in everything I have ever tried them in. Mini-mags were much better, going into a little over an inch. Minus a flyer, they actually shot pretty decent.

I did score a brick of 711B at the LGS at lunch today, $49 for the brick. Good price on a (hopefully) decent subsonic. I am ready to test that one out.
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