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  #31  
Old 04-21-2016, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manford Trens View Post
First off, huge respect to you for expressing your points so civilly and intelligently, and writing your thoughts so well I hope that you feel welcome and appreciated here. You seem to to be the sort of person who is an asset to ANY group; thoughtful and respectful.

I agree very much that suppressors should be viewed primarily as safety devices. However, I voted against in this case. I am a huge fan of Military-style peep sights as well, yet they are banned from SuperStock because it is a matter of appearances and format. I diverge from Vincent in that he seems to base disqualifications heavily on whether the proposed feature might encroach into the territory of another RFC forum. I would prefer to keep things in SuperStock following a classic sporter design and appearance as a standalone ethic. I feel this precludes suppressors. Indeed, this forum may not be called "Factory", but terms like "Factory", "OEM", and "Stock" are clearly synonymous. "SuperStock" is about enhanced stock rifles with classic, traditional cosmetics. I also submit for your consideration that in the rules, the words "Traditional Sporter" in fact appear prominently and early. This is my line of thinking, since you inquired. Again, on a personal note, I will be very happy to see your forum participation with or without your can, however things turn out. I woke up breathing in America today, so I will be pretty happy whichever way the vote goes
GREAT POST.

Consider this though, our industry and laws are changing. Many Traditional Styled Sporters now come stock or as an option with suppressor friendly threaded barrel right from the factory. Ruger is either planning or has already released their first suppressor. I know at least one version of the 10/22 Deluxe Sporter (what we call a DSP) is now threaded. That is their MOST traditional styled 10/22 and I am certain that it is no coincidence they are also releasing the can for it and all their 22lr guns.

Traditional does not need to be the same as "Stuck In The Mud". Further consider some TRADITIONAL SPORTERS have been suppressed for over 100 years!! Our friends "across the pond" make what are probably THE MOST TRADITIONAL SPORTERS in the world!! Yet almost all of their small bore hunting is now and has been for quite awhile, suppressed. Companies like Mauser, Holland and Holland (H&H), Gibbs, Jefferies, Martini, and at least a dozen more.

In this country we tend to be myopic and see us as the world. In the UK, New Zealand, and Australia for instance a traditional sporter is just as likely to have a suppressor as not and it has been this way for many years. They even suppress their high powered pellet rifles many of which are traditional in appearance.

We have RFC members that post from those countries so often that last year I was shocked to see that one member I have followed for a while was posting from New Zealand. I personally have 3 RFC members I count a friends, as in sending stuff back and forth, staying in contact, almost as long as I have been a member here that are Aussies.

My point being is that the word Traditional does NOT exclude these devices.
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Last edited by Vincent; 04-21-2016 at 02:03 PM.
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  #32  
Old 04-21-2016, 02:34 PM
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Just to be clear, I do not feel as if I am having to tiptoe around. Not at all. I never have been accused of that in here before, so no need to start now.

However, I do not want anyone to feel I am trying to dominate the discussion, or force things into a direction the group as a whole does not want to go. That is not my intention, and I do not want any of the members to feel that way. After all, this issue is my problem, and not necessarily anyone else's, unless they want to buy into it too. Just because I may not agree with any one person's view, does not mean that I feel they do not have a right to it, and that I do not respect it. I will continue to contribute, but I will try and limit it so as to not dominate the discussion.

Manford Trens, thank you for elaborating on your thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I understand what you are saying, your thought process behind it, and I respect that.

The discussion and vote was in 2012. It was heated. At times, very heated. I was not a part of it then, I had no dog in the fight at that time. In fact I was not even aware of it until way after the fact. I believe though, that the real issue was not suppressors. The subject came up because of a military style brake or flash hider, and suppressors were just kind of lumped in the same catch-all discussion. It was a separate vote for each in the end, but my personal opinion from reading the thread is that there were quite a few knee jerk reactions involved. Since suppressors were not the real topic of the discussion, and there really wasn't anyone in that thread who owned one and therefore could speak through extensive real world experience, the discussion "for" was limited to just a couple of people. Once again, that is just my own personal opinion from reading that thread. As far as I am concerned it is water way under the bridge.

What I really don't want to happen is for this discussion to go down the same path the other one did. No personal attacks, no need for Beauxdro's Butt Paste afterwards, none of that. Just a good clean discussion with an open mind, and everyone votes based on the facts and their own personal held beliefs. So far it has been very civil, and I appreciate that.
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  #33  
Old 04-21-2016, 06:12 PM
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In my opinion they should be allowed. Ruger has entered the can business with their own line for rim fires. Times have changed , so Ruger has also, the huge gun sales can't last forever. I think this is a good addition and may attract some new interest.
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  #34  
Old 04-21-2016, 07:56 PM
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It seems all too obvious to me that the suppressor or any attachment that shape changes the profile to the exact same profile as a running boar or muzzle weighted barrel.

Unless I am mistaken, that makes it a SuperSport Heavy. I don't see the problem. For that matter, I don't see the need to make the running boar or whatever barrel profile a separate section.

I am not going to vote if there is a vote. I just think its common sense that it has a heavy profile not a tapered profile. Just for the record, I couldn't care less what folks have. I come to this section because it is where the sporter owners that like to go for accuracy congregate.
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  #35  
Old 04-21-2016, 11:32 PM
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I went back and reread the "what is a Super Stock" sticky. It says "Traditional Sporter". I think this definition may be changing for lots of folks. Lots of sporter rifles come threaded now days, and the muzzle devices " breaks, Magnaport BOSS etc" have been on many of these TS rifles for as long as I've been shooting, and getting more common as the years go by. The lines appear to be blurring as we go along. This is especially true of silencer use as they are becoming more and more prevalent and accepted, just like composite stocks have over time. Why even allow a rifle to be posted in the SS forum with a threaded barrel for that matter? Is it a matter of the lines of the rifle meeting a certain optical criteria?

As I stated before, all my traditonal hunting riggs are slowly being threaded for silencer use.
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  #36  
Old 04-22-2016, 12:09 AM
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A very small percentage of "Stock" sporter rifles come with muzzle devices from the factory. It's the exception, not the commonality (thought I was going to write "rule", didn't you?).

"Traditional" refers to structures/norms/ideals from the past, not present or future trends What any company has started doing recently will not be relevant to "tradition" until quite a bit of time has passed

Anyway, times change, and I support a respectful pluralistic debate, and a vote to decide the issue
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  #37  
Old 04-22-2016, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86c View Post
It seems all too obvious to me that the suppressor or any attachment that shape changes the profile to the exact same profile as a running boar or muzzle weighted barrel.

Unless I am mistaken, that makes it a SuperSport Heavy. I don't see the problem. For that matter, I don't see the need to make the running boar or whatever barrel profile a separate section.

I am not going to vote if there is a vote. I just think its common sense that it has a heavy profile not a tapered profile. Just for the record, I couldn't care less what folks have. I come to this section because it is where the sporter owners that like to go for accuracy congregate.
The rule is the MUZZLE must be under .750" (actually some slip up to a bit more like .760" but we are not going to shoot somebodies rifle down for that factory screw up).

As for the Running Boar if left as is SuperSport it is. However about 7 years ago one of our best and most fun builders here my buddy Ricochet wanted a Running Boar but also wanted to be in SuperStock (no SuperSport back then of course) so after a phone call or three he walked next door to his neighbor the machinist who turned the .920 section down to .750" and the barrel was at least as accurate after the minor surgery. In his usual crazy style, what else can you call a Hawaiian living as he put it "On the REZ in Montanny" for the Sioux Indian Reservation he lived on. One bedroom of his house was turned into a bench rest room and most of the house was wall papered in targets so he could find them. I miss him every time I come to SuperStock which is almost every day.
Mongo:

Ricochet had a little trouble making the 1/4" club at first...I even offered to ship him my T/C Classic:


He has a nice quiet place on Da Rez Now :



He named the rifle Miss Piggy (because it was smaller than a Boar I guess) and proceeded to clean up every game we had back then (he would not shoot past 50 yards). Last I heard another of our original S.S. SuperStock Pirate crew, Rig Rat, still has the rifle down in bayous of LA.



The Suppressor has nothing to do with muzzle size....well actually it reduces it when threaded.

JTPin TX is correct. I made a BAD mistake when I lumped the Suppressor vote in with a muzzle brake vote. DrGunners son entered a rifle here with a Barrett .50 Cal size Brake on his rifle and it, rightfully I guess, offended our traditional SuperStock guys. He was a little kid having fun with his rifle which is more important than if it fit in here anyway. Anyway after the vote threaded muzzles were okay but no brakes or Suppressors. Kinda my fault for arguing both should be allowed. I think back then even the smallest Can would have voted out as the Barrett thing scared the "slippery slope" guys and it was probably right

THIS time we are discussing Suppressors ONLY and it may be time to join the 21st century. Let me restate this again. While it is obvious I think we should allow them it brings up THREE important points:

1. While I may be the Moderator and even the guy blamed for starting SuperStock my vote and my arguments mean exactly the same as any other voting member one vote. No more and no less. My opinion is no more important than any other member. Generally speaking SuperStock is so peaceful that I never have to flex my Moderator muscles because we have a good bunch here. If you think all the old timers are no longer involved wait till the vote gets close! They come out of the wood work which is fair

2. When we vote (to vote you have to have had SOME project rifle in ONE of the 3 SS forums in the last 10 years) but ANY RFC Member is free to express his or her opinion here up to the vote or after for that matter

3. I do not own a suppressor and short of selling several rifles I never will as much as I would like to so my views on this subject are for the "greater good" as I see that, NOT because I have a stake in what will happen if we allow the devices in
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Last edited by Vincent; 04-22-2016 at 01:18 AM.
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  #38  
Old 04-22-2016, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderStick View Post
I went back and reread the "what is a Super Stock" sticky. It says "Traditional Sporter". I think this definition may be changing for lots of folks. Lots of sporter rifles come threaded now days, and the muzzle devices " breaks, Magnaport BOSS etc" have been on many of these TS rifles for as long as I've been shooting, and getting more common as the years go by. The lines appear to be blurring as we go along. This is especially true of silencer use as they are becoming more and more prevalent and accepted, just like composite stocks have over time. Why even allow a rifle to be posted in the SS forum with a threaded barrel for that matter? Is it a matter of the lines of the rifle meeting a certain optical criteria?

As I stated before, all my traditonal hunting riggs are slowly being threaded for silencer use.

We allowed the threaded muzzle so you CAN put a can on any SuperStock rifle and in less than a minute make it legal to post and shoot in the games. It was kind of a compromise at the time. Of course EVERYTHING we do in our "games" is on the honor system so someone with out honor (or plain lazy) could post his or her rifle here with out the suppressor. Put the suppressor back on the rifle and leave it there to shoot all the games and it is unlikely he or she would ever be caught doing this.

We HOPE that is not happening but we have no way short of a tattle tale telling how would we catch them? I have to say that in 9 years of games here and in SuperStock Bolt and in the last year in SuperSport we have only caught one cheat for sure that I can remember. Back then SuperStock was one of the busiest forums here and we had the whole "Pirate" thing going (right up to making a member "walk the plank").

We got that name because in our brainstorming to come up with ways to make these little rifles VERY accurate we were constantly "pirating" each others threads. Bad form on any other forum but pretty much expected here, there was so much info and ideas flying around. One night I asked Ricochet if he could refrain from pirating a thread and it was ON!! Next thing I knew I was the Captain and Rico was first mate. Rig Rat REALLY was a boatswains mate so he got in charge of the plank.

Anyway a young guy wanted to impress us and "shot" an impossibly small three groups from a STOCK 10/22 in the 1/4" Club. Ricochet rode him hard for two days even when I asked him to slow down because honor meant a lot to Rico. The kid admitted it and did not come back until a critical vote and he got all his buddies to register in RFC and they only posted one time....to vote. THAT was why we had to go to the voting member had to have contributed to the forum at some time as this happened twice but with someone else.
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  #39  
Old 04-22-2016, 02:51 PM
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Well, my day at work today has really freaking sucked, and being civilized today might be a real stretch for me. So I am going to bow out for the weekend, hook on to the camper trailer and go fish. If you pirates get around to taking a vote before I get back, then my vote is yes, obviously. If not, then I will see you gents on the other side.
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  #40  
Old 04-23-2016, 10:21 AM
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I was at Mike's Gun Smithing last night as a group of people that hang out there were just B.S. ing and fixing little things. I told him about this thread. I wished I had my camera. He went into the little safe and pulled out a Remington 1906 with a factory barrel original to the gun that was threaded. The reason we know it was a factory thread is between the front sight and the threads the barrel became thicker and stopped right at the threads.

110 year old rifle with a factory threaded barrel. You could tell it was probably used with a can before the 1934 law making them illegal w/o tax stamp! Rifle was a VERY traditional pump from the time. Suppressors were pretty popular around the country during the first three decades of the 20th Century.
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  #41  
Old 04-25-2016, 10:05 AM
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So, it looks like the discussion is pretty much done judging by the posts on this thread.

Do we have enough interest to re-visit the vote? Where do we go from here?
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  #42  
Old 04-25-2016, 04:50 PM
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Former supervisor brought his grandfathers 1890 Winchester .22 pump with threaded barrel to work to show me. Said it was threaded from factory. He had it at high end gunsmith for repairs and when he picked it up another customer offered high dollar for it, but he would not sell. Gunsmith told him others had seen it and wanted to buy also. Supervisor wouldn't say for sure, but hinted he had the original attachment for it. So yes, threaded barrels and suppressors have been around a long time. I understand that way back when, the pump .22 with suppressors were used in some of the early shooting galleries at carnivals and county fairs and such.
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  #43  
Old 04-25-2016, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JTPinTX View Post
So, it looks like the discussion is pretty much done judging by the posts on this thread.

Do we have enough interest to re-visit the vote? Where do we go from here?
Sorry. I have been a little preoccupied on the home front. We may start a Vote thread tomorrow
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  #44  
Old 05-01-2016, 10:35 PM
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Que's Question

Our highly respected old SuperStock member has asked, and felt he did not get an answer, Something to the effect of what is next tuners?

Look I know a few of the original and older SuperStock members are not happy with the suppressor vote. Like I said in the other thread I have been on the losing side of several votes including 4 years ago on suppressors and brakes (when DrGunner's son tried to enter SuperStock with a brake that was much like the Barrett 50 cal brake ) and I lost again recently when I supported allowing SuperStock rifles to shoot on a separate list in the new competitions in SuperSport.

I do not like losing a vote anymore than any one else. But I try to be graceful about it. I voted on the losing side and I lost. It happens and when it does if I throw a tantrum (NOT suggesting anyone DID throw one this time) it will not make it better. I congratulate the winning side and go on.

Que's question that he felt was not answered in the voting thread was something to the effect of if we accept suppressors does this open the door to tuners?

The fact of the matter is that door has been open since the first days of SuperStock! If enough members can make a case FOR tuners to keep a discussion thread convince the group to vote we will VOTE.

This is how we have made every single rule we have except the no .920 barrel thing as that was one of the few limits INDY, ADMIN2 and ADMIN3 put on SuperStock when we were given the forum. That was because back then any chopped carbine stock with a .920 WAS an Ultimate 10/22. Other than that every rule we have was a voted rule.

Having said that I sincerely doubt we will EVER see tuners in SuperStock. Why? because one definition is PRACTICAL. Suppressors are practical to many hunters and shooters that do not shoot on public ranges (one does not help much when there is a .300 Mag on the next bench and a Ar-10 on the other side). In the woods or your backyard they are very practical.

Muzzle mounted tuners have no practical purpose on a light SuperStock rifle. I sincerely doubt it would make it through the discussion thread required BEFORE a vote thread. Remember the original definition of a SuperStock was a "Practical plinking and hunting rifle". AFTER Sawdust started the wave of games with his 1/4" Club we added "Practical plinking, hunting and target shooting". We are NOT a bench rest forum although we do shoot from benches testing and playing most of the games. This why I do not believe muzzle mounted tuners will ever reach the voting process never mind win a rule vote. Thinking back through ALL the SuperStock members I have gotten to know over the years I can not think of a SINGLE MEMBER that would fight FOR muzzle mounted tuners. I have to guess there could be one or two of the people that either were not well known or maybe a pot stirrer or two that would propose tuners but it would never make it through the pre vote discussion never mind a vote in my opinion.

Notice I said "my opinion". By our own methods if many members DID want tuners in the discussion and made their case strong enough we would have to vote for or against Tuners. I hope that day never comes. I will come back to this.

I do not make the rules. When I organized enough people to GET this forum
I started hearing the term "Vincent's Forum" and that really bothered me. It was not then and and never will be Vincent's Forum. I will never be the one making the rules, that is why we started voting in the very early days of this forum and have ever since.

I said I would come back to tuner vote. I do hope it never happens but I also think that many members of SuperStock have forgotten our original intent. That was to develop these little rifles to be the best they could be. It seems to me that somewhere between 2009 and 2012 we stopped experimenting and trying to develop these rifles further. You old timers here reading this do you remember how much fun and work we put into getting to where we are? All the craziness and brainstorming and pirating each others threads because suddenly one of us would have an idea? THAT was how we got our Pirate identity! Have we done ANYTHING to advance these rifles since 2012?

That was the year we voted against a little kid and his silly muzzle brake. Did anyone really think it would hurt this forum if we allowed muzzles brakes that looked like they belonged on a tank? Did anyone really think huge muzzle brakes would take over SuperStock? The funny part of this part is Ricochet's first 10/22 HAD a brake on it when we started SuperStock or just before. One of those silly slip on and set screw ones and it was killing his accuracy because it moved from shot to shot.

Why did I bring this up? Because we have painted ourselves into a very comfortable corner with our rules. Too many of us have gotten so stuck in our ways we are turning away people that want to shoot here. How did allowing suppressors hurt a single member of SuperStock Does it hurt our forum that a few members have ugly things on THEIR BARRELS? Does that hurt YOUR BARREL in any way? Does it make your enjoyment of any aspect of SuperStock less enjoyable? Really?

So just because some of us think they are ugly we keep a number of people (whether it be 1 or 10)from joining us in SuperStock? Recently we have been accused of turning SuperStock into an exclusive club because we turn so many people away. For the most part they were wrong BUT their point made me think about this suppressor rule. We DID turn people away 4 years ago when we voted against them when we were really voting against bug ugly muzzle brakes.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone here. We all have become comfortable with these pretty and accurate rifles we have been building. Also as with Que real life gets in the way. We certainly miss his great work on the bolts and barrels. I just worry that we have become so comfortable with where we are as group we have not kept up with changes around us never mind advancing that level as we used to do. Suppressors are a perfect example.
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Last edited by Vincent; 05-02-2016 at 01:35 AM.
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  #45  
Old 05-02-2016, 12:12 AM
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LOL, missed my chance to vote I am glad that the OP's preference won the vote, simply for the sake of enabling him to share with us. No hard feelings, I hope! I still feel that a can does not fit at all into the classic sporter guidelines that drew me to SuperStock in the first place, but an enthusiastic member able to participate happily in this forum is a win

If the votes keep coming and things change too much for some of us to accept, we "can" go elsewhere
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