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Old 02-20-2016, 07:38 PM
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Super Stock bore to scope alignment



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Lift and center for perfect bore to scope alignment.

The scope I always wanted to put on my 50th DSP even before I bought it is the Weaver V-24. It only has 36moa total adjustment range which is not a lot for a factory 10/22 receiver with a factory or factory-style sporter barrel. Additionally, my LONG TIME favorite rail/ring combo for the DSP is Weaver Quad Lock MED rings and Weaver TO-9M tip-off rail. This is CARVED OUT literally and figuratively so spending up for offset insert rings and/or a fancy tip-off rail with either elevation or gross windage are both not going to happen period.

My 50th receiver/barrel fitment was a ‘loose fit’ compared to my other two 10/22s. With a factory barrel it shot 20moa to the left with a good quality scope set at mid-travel for windage. It also shot 28moa low with the elevation centered. Out of range for the scope I wanted in both directions. Therefore, I set out to ‘fix’ the problem of being way to off-center by bring the bore into alignment with the scope centered in its travel.

Initially I machined my cheap tip-off rail to exactly the amount required and that worked fine to get the POI on or couple of inches high with scope centered in its travel. Came out exactly where I wanted it. Then it occurred to me that I could torque one side of the v-block down super-tight and just snug the other side and adjust the bore to the scope. Which I did. That also came out very well. In the process, it also got the bolt to fit flush against the barrel breech-face perfectly whereas with the v-block tightened down normally there was a significant gap on one side.

Got my V-24 scope and all was well as far as bore to scope alignment. Later, I decided I wanted to see if I could center the bore left/right w/o having to do tricks with the v-block torque. So used some card-stock (.01” thck) to shim it the barrel under the tongue and tapped it on. It worked reasonably well. However, I figured it would not be ideal long term.

Later, it came up in conversation and I was informed by someone who I consider to be an expert 1022 gunsmith and well-proven marksman in competition with 1022s that if I installed a set screw in the bottom of the receiver tang (super easy to do) that it would lift the barrel up and center it nicely both at together at once. I was VERY skeptical because I was convinced that it was the hole in the receiver that was not straight and that was the problem. The reason I was so sure about that is because at one point I had installed an aftermarket bull barrel with an over-sized tenon that was a ‘resistance-fit’. The barrel installation required the receiver to be heated up and tapped onto the tenon. When I did that, the barrel was clearly not in ‘straight’ as the v-block was obviously on crooked but the barrel was in ‘right’ and no way to manipulate its position. That barrel shot 32moa to the left instead of only 20moa to the left with the factory barrel. However, the set screw was too easy and the source of information too reliable, imo, to not try it. So I did.

The result of the set screw was incredible. Centered the windage to within 2moa and the correlating elevation poi was WAY TOO HIGH. Shocking but true. However, that was with only about 10in/lbs of torque on the factory v-block. With the factory v-block as tight as possible the POI was now 2” high at 50yds with scope centered as always. Now just to be clear, all the reports about it being ON once I started using the set screw and/or shims are with a 0moa rail.

Great. EXEPT that even with the barrel torqued down as tight as possible I could feel a tiny bit of wobble left/right. That will never do. The card stock shim was actually way more stable. SO, I since I KNOW how stable it all is when shimmed tight, and I KNOW the set screw puts it as ON as ON can be with a 0moa rail, and I have been wanting to epoxy in a barrel for years, I went for it.

The results were fantastic. Again with the factory v-block as tight as possible but the v-block only installed after the epoxy cured with the set screw AND the take down screw holding it in the full UP and CENTER position.

That made me want to see if it was repeatable so I took a second receiver and a factory barrel and did a second one. This time I skipped all the ‘process’ of building confidence and simply used the take down screw to hold the barrel in position while the epoxy cured. Tested both barreled actions in the same sporter stock at 50yds with the same scope set at its mechanical zero or mid-travel for windage and elevation.

The second one is EXACTLY the same for windage and shoots even higher than the first but not by enough to be a problem. In fact, I can zero that scope on the second barreled action ‘orphan’ at 25yds with no problems and be very close to being able to zero at 200yds even with the very limited travel of that scope and no rail/ring offsets.

As you can see, the two are extremely close to each other and one should note that at the time of the test one action had a taller rail than the other which does affect the POI vs POA with all other things being equal. A few moa of elevation difference from one to another is no big deal imo. However, wild variations in windage alignment makes using the same scope(s) on different barreled actions a real pita at times. Now I can set my scopes up to be dead on for windage, be extremely close to center of travel, and swap scopes quickly and easily with minimal elevation adjustments needed.

And THAT is how I like mine.

This is the 50yds comparison test. PLEASE forgive the horrible 10rd groups as I was in a BIG HURRY to measure and compare the actions with cold, clean bores for an 'apples to apples' test to the best of my ability and not concerned with trying to shoot tight groups at all.



Epoxy barrel. I used plumbers putty to keep mud out of the t/d hole. Froglube (gobs on the t/d screw) on both the receiver and barrel tongue to make future removal more feasible. I have not as yet tried to remove either of them but plan to remove the barrel from the second one as it was just a test and I wanted to use a factory barrel.





Just for reference this is the DSP I am talking about. Since this photo was taken I have shaved the top of that barrel to clear my favorite scope and put my favorite tip-off rail back on.

It occurs to me that I did not post pics of mine yet.

cheekbone III

50th DSP
Feddersen factory contour barrel
Weaver 430-T rail
Weaver QL MED rings
Weaver V-24 scope
Kidd Trigger Job Kit
DIY rear tang_SUPER STOCK/sporter-style
Pillar bedded front/rear take-downs
Silicone bedded barrel.
DIY cheek rest


Last edited by 86c; 02-20-2016 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 02-20-2016, 08:16 PM
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I have a sloppy barrel fit in one of my 10/22 receiver also, here is two ways I have delt with it.
Used locktite too glue the barrel to the receiver and used the bottom receiver screw & the scope mount screw to take out the barrel droop.


Then when the lock-tite set up I removed the V block, worked very good.

Now I am using this method now, drilled & taped the V block for a set screw.



But was just concerned about barrel droop.

Midwest Swiss

Last edited by midwest swiss; 02-20-2016 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 02-20-2016, 08:43 PM
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YEP. We are doing the exact same thing only different epoxy.

THIS thread should be a Super Stock sticky, imo.

I ALSO used the rail screw for extra hold the first time thru but neglected to mention it.

The screw from above actually pushed the whole thing DOWN.

I proved it. You would think the opposite tho.
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:03 PM
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I got carried away describing the details of how I got to the simple method and forgot the details of the simple method itself.

Two factory receivers. The fist one has a Feddersen 18" factory contour barrel. The second one has a factory sporter barrel. The scope was a Weaver v-24 set mid-travel on both windage and elevation. Same scope/rings was used on both barreled actions.

The pics below show the SECOND one I did which shot the groups on the LEFT side of target.



I went the LONG way around the block to find out what the simplest and BEST way to do it is.



*GREASE or LUBE the threads of the TD screw heavily as well as the barrel, receiver, etc.

*Protect the v-block holes, etc.

*Use a 1/2 of a pea size plumbers putty stuck in threaded hole with TD screw backed out just enough to back fill the hole a small amount. I did not do this the on the first one. Second one came out much better.

*Use Devcon or JBweld steel epoxy and butter the receiver tang as shown.

*Install barrel with receiver inverted such that gravity helps keep it pointed UP and prevents too much epoxy from being squeezed out.

*Tighten TD screw against barrel.

*Wipe off excess epoxy.

*Support such that gravity helps not hurts as epoxy cures.

*Once epoxy is fully cured, install v-block and torque to max.

*Done.





Like I said, I went the LONG WAY to get here but this is the simplest, cheapest, easiest and most effective way to solve not only the DROOP but also the SHOOTS WAY OFF TO ONE SIDE problems both at the same time. And yes, it will fit in the barrel channel 'straight and center' much better too.

I will also note that after 800rds I have seen NO EFFECT on accuracy.

HOWEVER, the bolt now hits the breech face dead square and it did not before. There is a VERY noticeable difference in the wear pattern on the breech face and it is now perfectly symmetrical like it should be.

I have found no down side to this at all. Works like a charm.

Still have not removed either of them from the receiver. I don't yet know how hard it will be to pop them out and/or clean up the receiver tang will be.

Last edited by 86c; 03-12-2016 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:38 PM
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Interesting....except I will have to read it again when I am not dead tired and goofy from lack of sleep

The one thing I did see that made me wonder was the heavy torque on take down as that normally causes accuracy problems Mine usually shoot best around 20 in/lb which is not much but like I said I am tired and sure I missed something....another look tomorrow.


Nice write up no matter
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:47 PM
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The weaver V-24's are my favorite scopes, see all my builds.

I also find 18 to 20 in/lb to be optimum. But then my rifles are done very similar to Vincent's.


Very interesting for sure!
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Old 03-13-2016, 12:26 PM
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Did you all mean v-block screws?

Sorry if I neglected to mention it but with this method of pointing the barrel up if you don't torque the v-block nice and tight the bore not only points way too far up it also changed poi too much over temperature due to the different expansion rates of AL tang and steel barrel. This is not speculation on my part. I verified it and to a certain degree quantified as well. I'll try to detail that another day/week/mo whatever.

I don't know how you all did yours to get the bore dead center and pointed up 20-30moa but Swiss and I are on the page. I just eliminated the extra step of using the set screw from below and longer rail screw from above. The set screw from below is replaced, and surpassed imo, by the use of the TD screw for set/cure process. The longer rail screw is a net negative. I verified/quantified that the same way. That is why I skipped it the second time. At first, I did the exact same thing as Swiss for the same reason but it turned out to be the polar opposite of what I thought it would do.

I will say that having gone thru this process I learned a lot and more convinced than ever that in the long run I would like to have CPC thread my barrel(s) to at least one receiver. I proved to myself that he is right, that is the ONLY way to get the 'stability' that I know I want. That day may never come but it is something I would like to do.

Last edited by 86c; 03-13-2016 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 03-13-2016, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSky1 View Post
The weaver V-24's are my favorite scopes, see all my builds.

I also find 18 to 20 in/lb to be optimum. But then my rifles are done very similar to Vincent's.


Very interesting for sure!
I am a Weaver fan for sure. Not the greatest 'optic' but Suits my 'style'. Its a spiritual thing.

Where is your POI relative to your v-24s mechanical zero and what did you do to get it there?
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Old 03-13-2016, 04:47 PM
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I can't remember a build of mine ever having a POI that was quite as far left or right as what your talking about here. Barrel droop I have encountered. My solution is the gunsmither block. They work very well and are cheap and easy to use. As a rule I don't like to create opposing forces when I can help it.
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Old 03-13-2016, 05:12 PM
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I hear you on the opposing forces.

Prior to using epoxy to hold the barrel in centered and up I milled a spare v-block flat and did some experimenting with the set screw from below, the extra long rail screw from above, the flat retainer block with and w/o the roll pin in the mouth.

EDIT: When I did the flat retainer instead of filing the tongue, I used the set screw from below in conjunction with the td screw to hold the barrel in where I knew for a fact it was exactly where I wanted in both planes. I put the action in the vice but clamped it by the tip-off rail not the sides of the casting. Then I milled the tongue and tang together for a perfect match at the correct final position. It was true to center and way higher then I even wanted it as a result. I don't see how I could have possible done a better job but maybe so.

That is when I discovered the temperature problem and the problem with the screw from above. I will try to explain it at a later date. It is simple. Writing it up not so much.

The opposing forces created by a set screw from below in the tang and from above thru the rail is much easier to explain.

The thought was the rear screw from above help hold the tail end down while the front props the whole deal up adding stability and such. Nice theory, did not hold water.

The short version is that the epoxy bedded tongue with NO helpers after cure with a V-block tight as possible was the best stability. I did absolutely go thru it both ways multiple times over both measuring the instability in the shop with a laser on paper and also field testing. Lack of torque on the v-block allowed it rise and fall too much over a relatively small temp change. The flat block was way, way worse than the v-block at low torque settings.

I am not saying others don't get good results with this that or the other thing. I am saying I have gotten my best results with the cheapest, easiest, fastest method which took me a LONG time to figure out just how simple and easy it really is when I know how.

Apparently Swiss figured it out a long time ago.

WHY he did not tell me sooner I don't know but now that I think of it he is on my ........

Thanks Swiss, I guess you figured I'd be better off figuring it out the hard way, eh.

Last edited by 86c; 03-13-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 03-13-2016, 05:39 PM
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The way I read it, Swiss used the Loctite inside the mortise and tenon joint of the receiver and barrel. I find that to be a bit different than what your doing. No need to put him on the **** list.....LOL!

I haven't encountered a large POI shift with a small temperature change in any of my builds to this point.


I do find your methods interesting and as you say, we all tend to find things that work for us.

Carry on!!!
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Old 03-13-2016, 06:30 PM
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You are right Swiss used different glue.

We both used the take down screw to set the position while curing. That is the simple trick that centers and lifts to the position that puts the poi at or above the scopes mechanical zero for elevation at 50yds and at the same time puts the poi dead on the scopes mechanical zero for windage.

I only wish I had known how to do this a long time ago.

On fence as to whether or not to let Swiss off easy.
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Old 03-13-2016, 07:12 PM
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Yes he did, and in a different place as well!

But now I understand what you meant about you and him doing the exact same thing. For some reason I didn't put it together you were talking the takedown and rail screw. It sounded like you were talking about the whole process. My bad...
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Old 03-13-2016, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSky1 View Post
I can't remember a build of mine ever having a POI that was quite as far left or right as what your talking about here. Barrel droop I have encountered. My solution is the gunsmither block. They work very well and are cheap and easy to use. As a rule I don't like to create opposing forces when I can help it.

To be honest I have never had a huge problem with barrels and receivers having these problems but I have wanted to raise POI just to help long range shooting and the Gunsmither Block works well. I also modified Ruger blocks with a a drilled and tapped hole of my own to put a bit of upward pressure on a barrel as well as tried commercial versions of the Ruger-like vee block.

Gunsmither block was best for me.

Using rubber or epoxy barrel pressure pads will do the same thing up to a point. Many ways to correct vertical barrel displacement. Never had a horizontal POI problem that was not well with in my scope's measurements. I have had barrels that tended to point to one side or the other but that could be corrected just by more carefully installing the barrel to begin with

Guess I have been lucky.
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Old 03-13-2016, 08:09 PM
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Maybe I am also not reading things correctly but are you talking about using a longer take down screw to push up on the barrel from below?

If so that sets off alarms in my mind. Since my first days at RFC the accuracy gurus of the time and later all felt that if the take down screw hits the barrel at ALL it can really screw up your accuracy.

One of the first things I check on a new build is to make sure the take down screw does NOT leave a mark on the barrel after being torqued in position. Our original accuracy gurus like Big Mike and ChiefDave (who built or had built over 100 very nice 10/22s) always preached this problem.

I will not allow any take down screw to touch the barrel.

Of course there is always the possibility of all those folks being wrong and just passing along tribal info that could not be correct
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