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  #46  
Old 03-10-2016, 09:37 PM
walt464

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A couple more range days with the SWFA scope linked above, one with the bedding I was using before and one with more rigid bedding.

1. The scope is fantastic. The glass and reticule are better than necessary (but mighty nice to have) and the overall quality is everything one would want. If you're going for precision at a reasonable price I don't see how you'd top this.

2. With the softer bedding I had groups of 9/16", 7/16", 3/8" and with a temporary further loosening got four shots in 3/16" with one shot at 1/2" -- all those groups at 50Y. Tightening things made it all go sour -- same kinds of ammo were out around 1-1/4", sometimes straight lines, sometimes every which way.

Conclusion: I need to bed the action to better eat vibration. I cannot think how to do that in a plastic stock with an action mounted as this one is. I will fiddle with some ideas over the weekend but I have ordered a wooden stock.

Wood's a friendlier material for a target rifle. Plastics are great where moisture is a big problem but it's springy -- it absorbs little energy when it's bent or compressed slightly. Absorption can be added -- cork is good -- but there isn't much room OR good shaped spots to put it in the 10/22 stock.

Someone will point out that true precision rifles -- the Ruger Precision Rifle is an example -- are all steel. That's right: Those rifles are so much stiffer than an aluminum/plastic (or wood) one that much less energy is converted to vibration. Once vibration comes in the door due to less stiffness (the 10/22), it must be soaked up somewhere.

Starting with wood and perhaps adding some cork where possible -- under the receiver lug for example -- should be better.

The 10/22 was not designed as a precision rifle, of course. The front of the receiver is too flexible even with a tight barrel mounting and having the stock split on the TD makes it that much worse. However it appears that it can be gotten to routinely shoot half-inch groups at 50Y which is amazing for a moderate price takedown .22LR semi-auto.
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  #47  
Old 03-15-2016, 08:41 PM
walt464

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Ammo data

Here are data on various subsonic ammo I've tried. The numbers are just five round groups from a single box so not precise. I've marked the kinds that gave best results in my TD with '*'(good) or '**' (best).

These are in my 18.5" bbl. and differ from the rated MV by varying amounts due to different barrel lengths used by the various makers for their testing.

All of these are subsonic: Beyond 25Y or maybe 50Y you must use subsonic ammo to avoid the bad accuracy that comes with a supersonic bullet dropping subsonic.

Prices vary widely but none of these are really cheap. The Eley TENEX is around $0.44/rd; some of the others are around 1/3 of that.

Standard deviation is (roughly) the range of fps that would contain 2/3 of actual muzzle velocities; the smaller the number the more uniform the ammo. Uniformity does NOT mean 'most accurate in every rifle' but generally does mean it is easier to figure out what's going on.

Ammo Rated MV Chrono Standard Dev.


S K Rifle Match ** 1050 1003 14

Eley TENEX ** 1085 1054 10

Eley Club 1085 1073 18

Fiocchi 300 * 1050 1044 10

Wolf M/T 1050 939 22

Eley Match OSP 1030 1044 12
(Pistol)

Eley SS HP * 1040 1024 8
Subsonic Hollow Point

Lapua Center X * 1073 1038 3

My favorites follow. While I chrono'ed only one string for these, I have fired a box or more of each and the comments below reflect the whole experience.

SK Rifle Match has been a consistent performer: Not always best (as I fiddled with the rifle) but always one of the best. It most often delivered a tiny group with one or two out of the group.

The Lapua Center X was the most consistent MV for my testing, it would deserve a place in any test box.

Eley's SS HP ought to be in every small game hunter's kit. It's uniform, performed well in my TD, and the hollow point means it won't just make a hole and keep going.

Fiocchi 300 has rarely given the smallest group for the day but it was always one of the smaller ones. Lots of round groups with nothing out of the group.

Today's range time went well: I shot a single group with SK Rifle Match at 100Y: 15/16" with three in a 1/8" triangle. I have the wooden stock in hand but will shoot once or twice more with the plastic one before starting that.

Five out of seven groups today could be called a four-shot group and a flyer. Whether that's purely statistical or a rifle issue causing flyers I don't know. However the fact that the Fiocchi and Eley TENEX always give round groups suggests a rifle chambering issue: Both of these have waxy lube while the tighter 'plus a flier' ammo -- SK Rifle match for example -- is greasy kid stuff.

Headspace is good -- 0.0425. However the chamber is 'sport' length -- longer than a target chamber in order to handle more kinds of ammo without problems. I'll probably shorten it one day -- just haven't quite figured out how, yet, and I have to make a gage.

The trigger is back to 'creepy' again: I'll probably wind up buying a good one but one more go at homebrew, first.
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  #48  
Old 03-18-2016, 08:34 AM
walt464

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I hate data

... facts are often inconvenient.

A 'somewhat soft' bedding of the front receiver lug was pretty good and a 'hard' one (an aluminum plate epoxied in place of 1/16" cork) was terrible. Just for kicks I removed the aluminum, Dremel-ed out the stock there, and put in TWO 1/16" layers of cork with the top one extending in a 'U' up the sides to the upper edge of the stock. I had to slightly file the inner faces of the stock to get enough room. I put a small O-ring under the head of the 12/24 receiver mounting screw.

Unfortunately that worked very well indeed, producing the best groups I've had: SK Rifle Match -- 5/16" (50Y) -- and Eley SS HP -- 7/16". Wolfe M/T -- good in other rifles but not my TD -- 15/32" with a flyer at 3/4".

Other types of ammo grouped about as well as in the past. Performance was limited by the combination of winds gusting occasionally to 15 MPH and the creepiness of the trigger. It's just too tough to time a shot accurately as needed in fast-changing wind conditions without messing up the hold.

As recommended by others (and after reading MANY opinions on RFC/10/22) I have ordered a Kidd single-stage trigger. $200 from Kidd.

The wooden stock will come after I've gotten the best performance from this (plastic) one.

Starting pinning down ballistics to allow exact shot placement rather than just grouping. I shot SK groups at 25Y (1/16", flyer at 7/32"), 50Y (5/16"), and 100Y (15/16") and chrono'd near the muzzle and at 99Y. (Nearly plugged the chrono with that one!) It appears that the actual MV is 1040 f/s and ballistic coefficient about 0.15. With an inexpensive chrono you can't do this kind of thing precisely.

The SWFA SS 12x scope's excellent glass and mil/mil design are a joy to use.
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2016, 06:26 AM
Cappy227

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Cheers gang... old time lurker and first post, here. I just picked up a TD, and immediately modified it to:
Tactical Solutions barrel in Hogue over-molded stock
Nikon P-Rimfire scope
Warne QD rings

I adjusted the coupling as advised on the Ruger site: Loosen, attach barrel, close the ring snug to the barrel end, back out two clicks.


First trip to the range was deplorable. CCI Green Tags would be my zeroing ammo of choice, a nice sub-sonic target load at 50 yards. I also tried to different grain weights of CCI MiniMags. I might as well have been firing a shotgun. I chased holes all over the paper for an hour before deciding I had either a scope issue (it seems this scope is being phased out - can anyone confirm?), a mount issue (everything was super tight!), a coupling issue, or a barrel issue.


Let the investigation begin... calling TacSol today to see what they say re ring/coupling adjustments.

With all of the thorough investigations and processes going on above, does anyone suggest an order of operations checklist?

Thanks!
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  #50  
Old 03-21-2016, 10:20 AM
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappy227 View Post
Cheers gang... old time lurker and first post, here. I just picked up a TD, and immediately modified it to:
Tactical Solutions barrel in Hogue over-molded stock
Nikon P-Rimfire scope
Warne QD rings

I adjusted the coupling as advised on the Ruger site: Loosen, attach barrel, close the ring snug to the barrel end, back out two clicks.


First trip to the range was deplorable. CCI Green Tags would be my zeroing ammo of choice, a nice sub-sonic target load at 50 yards. I also tried to different grain weights of CCI MiniMags. I might as well have been firing a shotgun. I chased holes all over the paper for an hour before deciding I had either a scope issue (it seems this scope is being phased out - can anyone confirm?), a mount issue (everything was super tight!), a coupling issue, or a barrel issue.




Let the investigation begin... calling TacSol today to see what they say re ring/coupling adjustments.

With all of the thorough investigations and processes going on above, does anyone suggest an order of operations checklist?

Thanks!
Looking forward to what TacSol tells you and your results. I am having similar issue with my TacSol Hogue takedown. Shot great from rest, all over the place non rested.

Last edited by 27 Beck; 03-21-2016 at 10:31 AM.
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  #51  
Old 03-21-2016, 02:07 PM
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I can't even get a great shot from the rest - just a bird-shot pattern.
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  #52  
Old 03-22-2016, 07:23 AM
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I "function tested" my 10/22 TD on Sunday for the first time. While this hardly qualifies as accuracy testing, I was very happy that the holes in the target seemed to land exactly where the sights were pointing when the shots broke. This is with me standing unsupported at 10 yards using Geco semi-auto and Aguila standard velocity ammo - left and right orange dots respectively below.

I set the take down ratchet that governs how tight the barrel is 3 click tight. It is definitely snug. Other than "over tightening" the barrel retention clicker, the rifle is completely stock.

The trigger is a lot heavier than it needs to be, so I expect to do even better after my Ruger BX trigger arrives. It is also obvious to me that I am having trouble seeing the open sights clearly with my old eyes. I am sure this rifle would be capable of shooting 1.5" groups at 50 yards off a sandbag rest with decent sights, using this ammo.

The least enjoyable aspect of shooting my 10/22 was loading the magazine. It took me about 50 rounds before I got the knack of loading the mag smoothly. I find larger caliber mags much easier to load, although loading my Buckmark's mag was easy enough, with the "ear" sticking out from the follower.

I am glad I bought this rifle. I own an original AR-7, and that thing is junk by comparison.


Last edited by subscriber; 03-22-2016 at 07:28 AM.
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  #53  
Old 03-23-2016, 02:48 PM
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At 12 yards, I can do this off-hand - just tried it with the Nikon P-Rimfire scope mounted on the Leupold QD rings, using CCI Subsonic 40gr.



The problem is moving back to 25 yards and then 50 yards. Shotgun spray.

I called Tactical Solutions, and he had no ideas aside from that the bolt holding the receiver into the rear of the stock (in front of the trigger guard) can sometimes be juuuuuust too long and put pressure on the coupling ring. With the rifle in two parts, you can actually see this happening as you turn it its final turns (look down into the hole that's a half-circle in the receiver on top, in front of the locking ring, as you thread that bolt into its snug position). I took it out, walked over to the belt sander and took a little off. It's not touching now. However, I'm not sure that had anything to do with bird-shot patterns at 50 yards.

To ensure it wasn't the scope/rings, I re-zeroed for the upper-right circle target and put five shots within that.

Back to the drawing board... I hope this doesn't turn out to only perform at backyard distances. I'd really like a 50-yard TD.

Last edited by Cappy227; 03-23-2016 at 02:53 PM.
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  #54  
Old 03-23-2016, 05:07 PM
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Cappy,

EDIT just found your comment here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappy227 View Post
I can't even get a great shot from the rest - just a bird-shot pattern.
Try increasing the take down tension until you can just get the barrel back on. Oil or grease the contact surfaces well before you persuade it to go together. I suspect that resting the rifle on bags is tweaking the barrel to receiver joint; or not tweaking it enough to "settle". Due to the way you grip the rifle offhand, the barrel to receiver joint may kink a certain way and stay there.


Perhaps not totally relevant now:
Offhand shooting with a scope is a problem for me. Any magnification, and I am actually driving the wobble due to "feedback". I prefer open sights or a scope that can be dialed down to a true 1X magnification for offhand shooting.

I think that because higher precision is required at 50 yards than 12, your scope magnification is causing the non-linear dispersion shooting offhand; rather than the rifle or ammo.

If you were shooting off sand bags and getting a shotgun pattern at 50 yards with the same set-up that groups so well offhand at 12 yards, I would suspect the bullets are being damaged in feeding into the chamber. Their randomness of flight due to aerodynamic and mass disturbances might then cause groups to open up. On the other hand, the bullets may be poorly made; in which case they will shoot poorly out of an accurate bolt action rifle you might have handy...

The other thing you should check is parallax with your scope at 50 yards. It should be good, but who knows. Parallax is more likely to be a problem at very short ranges.
Have you tried larger aiming points at 50 yards?

Do you use a different hold at different ranges? If so, try the hold that works so well at 12 yards. My TD did not seem to mind where I gripped or rested the front portion of the stock under the barrel.

Last edited by subscriber; 03-23-2016 at 06:35 PM.
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  #55  
Old 03-23-2016, 06:45 PM
Cappy227

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Quote:
Originally Posted by subscriber View Post
Cappy,

EDIT just found your comment here:

Try increasing the take down tension until you can just get the barrel back on. Oil or grease the contact surfaces well before you persuade it to go together. I suspect that resting the rifle on bags is tweaking the barrel to receiver joint; or not tweaking it enough to "settle". Due to the way you grip the rifle offhand, the barrel to receiver joint may kink a certain way and stay there.


Perhaps not totally relevant now:
Offhand shooting with a scope is a problem for me. Any magnification, and I am actually driving the wobble due to "feedback". I prefer open sights or a scope that can be dialed down to a true 1X magnification for offhand shooting.

I think that because higher precision is required at 50 yards than 12, your scope magnification is causing the non-linear dispersion shooting offhand; rather than the rifle or ammo.

If you were shooting off sand bags and getting a shotgun pattern at 50 yards with the same set-up that groups so well offhand at 12 yards, I would suspect the bullets are being damaged in feeding into the chamber. Their randomness of flight due to aerodynamic and mass disturbances might then cause groups to open up. On the other hand, the bullets may be poorly made; in which case they will shoot poorly out of an accurate bolt action rifle you might have handy...

The other thing you should check is parallax with your scope at 50 yards. It should be good, but who knows. Parallax is more likely to be a problem at very short ranges.
Have you tried larger aiming points at 50 yards?

Do you use a different hold at different ranges? If so, try the hold that works so well at 12 yards. My TD did not seem to mind where I gripped or rested the front portion of the stock under the barrel.
Wow man - THANK you. VERY thorough leads! So with that:
-To shoot the smaller group above offhand, I dialed the scope magnification back to its lowest.
-I've been wondering about the scope and parallax - did Nikon discontinue this thing? I can't find the P-Rimfire in stock anywhere but a few places, with no backorder. Made me wonder if the scope was total junk in general, and was about to swap my Leupold rimfire to it... but man, in three decades of shooting I've never had a scope be the issue.
-Then I saw your comment about the bullets themselves (the CCI Subsonics usually are great for me) possibly being damaged. I chambered one and popped it out, and certainly found marring on the lead. These are the same photo side by side, but one with red circles to show were to look.


I took the barrel off, and popped one into the same magazine. Removed it from the magazine. No marring. Inserted mag into receiver. Cycled the bolt, and caught the round. No marring.

Does anyone see anything on the barrel that would cause this?


Is this enough marring to cause the 3" groups at 25 yards, and 6"+ groups at 50? Thoughts?

Can someone take a lead nose round and pop it into their well-performing TD, and tell me if anything looks similar when the round is ejected? (Please be careful doing this in the house, guys).

Never had an issue with a Tactical Solutions barrel, but there's a first time for everything..?

Last edited by Cappy227; 03-23-2016 at 06:54 PM.
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  #56  
Old 03-23-2016, 07:06 PM
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Hi Cappy,

Thanks for taking my advice seriously. It may only be worth exactly what you paid for it

Semi-autos mark their ammo in feeding to some degree. It can't be helped because the rounds meet the chamber at a nose up angle, and then have to straighten out against the chamber mouth at the bottom and the chamber "ceiling" at the top. That is one reason why bolt actions are more accurate - more gentle feed cycle. It is also why bench rest competitors single load each round - to minimize damage.

What I can't tell you is if the degree of "damage" to your ammo is typical for a 10/22, or worse. It certainly does not look good. Much later, when I have serviced my other commitments, I will try to answer that question by feeding ammo into my 10/22 TD and BM pistol for comparison.

Meanwhile, you could mark new rounds with a pen so you know what orientation they were in when they were fed. My bet is that the bottom of the chamber mouth is doing that to your ammo; but it could be the mag's fault.

Your barrel's chamber mouth looks OK. Resist the urge to bell the chamber mouth. If you must "polish" it, don't remove more than 0.001"of material.

Try feeding ammo from the mag with the barrel removed from the action to ensure it is not the mag scraping your ammo.

What adjustments to mag lips or mag retention height or angle can be made, to minimize damage to ammo is a whole other can of worms...

I am not a 10/22 expert by any stretch, but I did stay at a Holiday Express once

Last edited by subscriber; 03-23-2016 at 08:08 PM.
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  #57  
Old 03-23-2016, 08:04 PM
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Cappy, can you take another picture to show how far the edge at the red arrows projects away from the chamber mouth? It probably cannot contact the rounds as they feed, but may be a little sharp if it did.

If this edge is sharp, and is scraping your ammo as it feeds; I don't see why you could not bevel it carefully...

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg edge.JPG (41.5 KB, 189 views)

Last edited by subscriber; 03-23-2016 at 08:10 PM.
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  #58  
Old 03-23-2016, 09:58 PM
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It's as sharp as the rest of the chamber area - I'll take a pic of it! I did an image search looking for a beveled ramp-ish on a 10/22, only came up with one...
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  #59  
Old 03-24-2016, 06:15 PM
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Here's as best a shot as I'm going to get without heading into my (convenient) photo studio with a macro lens. I marked the top of a round this time before again chambering it. It's definitely the bottom of the round getting marred up.
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  #60  
Old 03-24-2016, 06:23 PM
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Thanks Cappy.

It would be useful if other could weigh in on on how much bullet marring is normal with a 10/22.

I will get to looking at mine, but have work to deliver before the end of this week that is getting in the way of my hobby...
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