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  #61  
Old 05-05-2014, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rimfire-Guy View Post
Here's another question...do you clean the barrel while at the range, and if so, after how many rounds?

When I go, I will easily shoot close to 100 rounds that day. I often get frustrated towards the end with accuracy. Is it possible that I can passing my rifles happy place with round count and need to run a rod or boresnake through it about halfway through my session?
That is a tough one My first two Green Mountain Heavy Taper barrels shot best with no more the two fouling shots and TEN shots for score. After lapping them and using Moly fusion on them they are fine with a 100 rounds or more.

I had one of the early stock barrels that was set back. TIGHT chamber and Moly Fusion and it took at least 40 rounds before the barrel would start shooting as well as it could.

The type of ammo can make that different even in the same barrel. Also I found out very early if I was shooting greasy Wolf or SK ammo The first group of Fed 510 would shoot just as well as the Wolf as would the first three rounds of the second group.

As for true Match ammo not only is it very expensive but with a sloppy chamber in your barrel you are not likely to get that much better performance.

Also you might want to spend less than $10 and get a Patch Worm kit. They are a sponsor here. Just my opinion but after the first use of a Bore Snake you are just pulling the same dirt back through the barrel. They are fine for cleaning a dirty bore on a hunt but for range shooting it does not help to keep pulling the same dirt through your barrel over and over.
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  #62  
Old 05-05-2014, 08:14 PM
Rimfire-Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
That is a tough one My first two Green Mountain Heavy Taper barrels shot best with no more the two fouling shots and TEN shots for score. After lapping them and using Moly fusion on them they are fine with a 100 rounds or more.

I had one of the early stock barrels that was set back. TIGHT chamber and Moly Fusion and it took at least 40 rounds before the barrel would start shooting as well as it could.

The type of ammo can make that different even in the same barrel. Also I found out very early if I was shooting greasy Wolf or SK ammo The first group of Fed 510 would shoot just as well as the Wolf as would the first three rounds of the second group.

As for true Match ammo not only is it very expensive but with a sloppy chamber in your barrel you are not likely to get that much better performance.

Also you might want to spend less than $10 and get a Patch Worm kit. They are a sponsor here. Just my opinion but after the first use of a Bore Snake you are just pulling the same dirt back through the barrel. They are fine for cleaning a dirty bore on a hunt but for range shooting it does not help to keep pulling the same dirt through your barrel over and over.
Thanks Vincent. Do you use the Patchworm exclusively for cleaning? I usually use a rod setup (from the rear) with bronze brush then patches. I only use the Boresnake once or twice through the barrel after using the rod just to remove anything that the patches may have missed.
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  #63  
Old 05-05-2014, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rimfire-Guy View Post
Thanks Vincent. Do you use the Patchworm exclusively for cleaning? I usually use a rod setup (from the rear) with bronze brush then patches. I only use the Boresnake once or twice through the barrel after using the rod just to remove anything that the patches may have missed.
On my 10/22s I do use the Patch worm exclusively except a chamber brush to break up the hard ring of lead, lube and carbon it the front of the chamber (very important in any rimfire but extremely important in a semi auto where it can cause out of battery discharges and damage to rifle or shooter)

Even on my CZ 527 .22 Hornet I use the PatchWorm more than rods anymore even though I have custom bore guides and some of the best rods money can buy.

They are an incredible deal when for so little money you can buy a kit that fits in your shirt pocket and will clean anything from 17 cal to 12 gauge.

You can make you own from weed eater line but for the price it is more trouble than it is worth and you do not get the multi caliber adapters.

http://patchworm.com
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  #64  
Old 05-05-2014, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
On my 10/22s I do use the Patch worm exclusively except a chamber brush to break up the hard ring of lead, lube and carbon it the front of the chamber (very important in any rimfire but extremely important in a semi auto where it can cause out of battery discharges and damage to rifle or shooter)

Even on my CZ 527 .22 Hornet I use the PatchWorm more than rods anymore even though I have custom bore guides and some of the best rods money can buy.

They are an incredible deal when for so little money you can buy a kit that fits in your shirt pocket and will clean anything from 17 cal to 12 gauge.

You can make you own from weed eater line but for the price it is more trouble than it is worth and you do not get the multi caliber adapters.

http://patchworm.com
I already made one tonight, lol.

Here's my cleaning routine...please put your 2 cents in if I am doing something not advised....

I pull the action out of the rear and put a brass bore guide in. I spray Remoil down the barrel till it comes out the chamber. I run a bronze brush from the rear through the barrel to the muzzle, but not all the way out the muzzle. I usually run the brush through 3 times, but I'll work back and forth at the muzzle end and the chamber end to aid removing the carbon rings. Then I run three patches through on the jag. After that, I run a boresnake through twice just to grab any left over debris.
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  #65  
Old 05-06-2014, 10:01 PM
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Hope I'm not overloading you guys with questions....I'm just trying to learn.

I've been reading up on headspace, and I've also seen people mention that my chamber just may not be of tolerance to benefit match ammo.

Take a look at the following pic....



Now, that ramp at the top, is spring loaded, and helps feed the round into the chamber. While the bullet is in the chamber, that ramp is pushing down on the top of it with spring pressure.

If I push up on the ramp taking the pressure off the round, I can actually move the round up and down a bit in the chamber.

So...is that normal, or is my chamber too loose? My GUESS, is that it's normal, because when I measure a round, the widest part of the bullet is a tad wider than the case itself. So the case must be a bit smaller than the chamber since the larger bullet goes through first. But I could be wrong, lol.

As far as headspace... my bolt has a recess in it that the rim of the round fits in, and then the rest of the bolt face that sticks out butts against the chamber area where the extractors slip into. So my guess is that my headspace is dictated by that bolt recess. When I place a round into that recess, I can see a visible amount of space left over from the edge of the bullet rim, to the the front of the recess.

From what I've been reading, this extra space lets the round move about in the chamber with the bolt in place, and from what I've read, that's not good for accuracy.

Should this be something I should try to address?
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  #66  
Old 05-07-2014, 09:02 AM
ShootsAtSky
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Sal,

You've got a pretty good understanding of the chamber fit and head space issues, the problem is that the gun 'was designed that way'. The gill gun design was developed to allow a semi-auto to shoot black powder ammo. It came out right at the end of the lifetime for black powder rimfire cartridges, but was successful enough to hang on another 40 years after that ammo was replaced by smokeless powder.

But, in order to function with black powder without having to clean after every 2-5 shots like a muzzle loader the gun has that odd lock back bolt to leave the action open for a second to let the smoke clear, gills to let the black cloud drift out of the action, and a loose chamber and action so that it keeps working even when dirty. That makes for great squirrel and rabbit guns, not so good for targets.

The head space of the gun is set by the depth of the cutout on the bolt face like you mention, and too much depth can let the round move when hit by the firing pin, leading to poor ignition. So, yes you can reduce that depth a little and it may help those fliers. But, it may also remove the surface hardening on the bolt face and lead to wear. I've done it on one of my gill guns, and it did help cut down fliers, with no wear signs after a couple of thousand rounds.

Not much you can do for the loose chamber, unless you want to remove the barrel, set back the chamber and barrel tenon and re-cut the chamber with something like a Bentz reamer. But, you might also have to re-tune the springs and bolt weight to get it to reliably seat bullets into the tighter chamber. Extracting and stove pipes could also become a problem with the tighter chamber.
Edit.. Forgot to mention that you'd also have to recut the dovetail for the hold down stud, moving the take down screw hole doesn't work because of the lift mechanism.

In short, if you want to tinker, the bolt face is an easy starting point. You can get lots of info from the bolt face / head space threads on the 10/22 forum. It's not going to make the gun a target shooter, but it might reduce the fliers (which would drive me crazy!).

Back on the target subject, even though you're using the lines to make sure the scope (and target) are level, you should be 'aiming' at the exact intersection of those lines (aim small :: shoot small). If you shoot out the intersection your eye doesn't have a small target any more and your groups will tend to drift.

Bob

Last edited by ShootsAtSky; 05-07-2014 at 09:45 AM.
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  #67  
Old 05-08-2014, 02:53 AM
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ShootsAtSky pretty much nailed it. Minimum Head space is .043" So you could measure the depth of the bolt pocket. Most rifle shoot well at .045" but after that it can start to effect accuracy.

SAAMI standards for 22 WERE set back in black powder days and they are .043 GO and .050 NO GO. Some of the custom bolt builder got to .0425 but if you go tighter than that you chance getting a "Slamfire" which is not a good thing.
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  #68  
Old 05-08-2014, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
ShootsAtSky pretty much nailed it. Minimum Head space is .043" So you could measure the depth of the bolt pocket. Most rifle shoot well at .045" but after that it can start to effect accuracy.

SAAMI standards for 22 WERE set back in black powder days and they are .043 GO and .050 NO GO. Some of the custom bolt builder got to .0425 but if you go tighter than that you chance getting a "Slamfire" which is not a good thing.
If I measure from the back of the bolt to the face of the recess I have 6.098, and the overall bolt measures 7.047. So I think that gives me a .049 head space....


Is there a DIY way to face the bolt?

Last edited by Rimfire-Guy; 05-08-2014 at 10:00 AM.
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  #69  
Old 05-08-2014, 11:38 AM
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The redneck tool post grinder:
A table saw with a sanding disk.
You hold the bolt against the miter set at 0 degrees and roll the bolt back and forth.
This will slightly change the geometry of the extractors.
Be sure and shorten the firing pin so it doesn't hit the breech face.

Since the bolt is 5/8 in dia, you can use a drill press with a large chuck to accomplish the same thing.

I know from your earlier postings you will be careful and check that the bolt hits the breech squarely.

The only other thing I can think of now is it may be interesting to figure out a way to see how concentric the chamber is with the breech face rim cutout.
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  #70  
Old 05-08-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke View Post
The redneck tool post grinder:
A table saw with a sanding disk.
You hold the bolt against the miter set at 0 degrees and roll the bolt back and forth.
This will slightly change the geometry of the extractors.
Be sure and shorten the firing pin so it doesn't hit the breech face.

Since the bolt is 5/8 in dia, you can use a drill press with a large chuck to accomplish the same thing.

I know from your earlier postings you will be careful and check that the bolt hits the breech squarely.

The only other thing I can think of now is it may be interesting to figure out a way to see how concentric the chamber is with the breech face rim cutout.
I think in many older 22s and even some new ones this is accomplish with slop in the chamber opening and chamber work on this rifle would be tough. Of course ANYTHING can be done with enough money and/or skill but you have to ask yourself how far is it worth going with this rifle? Great improvements have already been made. I think if it were mine I would fix headspace and leave it at that.

Having said that if you truly enjoy this stuff the chamber could be set back but it would be a ton of work. I think you already have one of the most accurate 87 type rifles around. It is certainly good enough for any hunting/plinking work it would ever be asked to do. It would be sad to now ruin it by trying to turn it into a highly tuned 10/22 or other target rifles. The rifle, as it is now, is something to be very proud of and of the work you have done.
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Last edited by Vincent; 05-08-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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  #71  
Old 05-08-2014, 05:15 PM
longislandloco
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Nice rifle, it is what it is, enjoy shootin' it!
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  #72  
Old 05-08-2014, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
I think in many older 22s and even some new ones this is accomplish with slop in the chamber opening and chamber work on this rifle would be tough. Of course ANYTHING can be done with enough money and/or skill but you have to ask yourself how far is it worth going with this rifle? Great improvements have already been made. I think if it were mine I would fix headspace and leave it at that.

Having said that if you truly enjoy this stuff the chamber could be set back but it would be a ton of work. I think you already have one of the most accurate 87 type rifles around. It is certainly good enough for any hunting/plinking work it would ever be asked to do. It would be sad to now ruin it by trying to turn it into a highly tuned 10/22 or other target rifles. The rifle, as it is now, is something to be very proud of and of the work you have done.
My problem is that I'm too new to this to accept that I can't do good target shooting with this rifle, lol.
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  #73  
Old 05-09-2014, 09:31 AM
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My problem is that I'm too new to this to accept that I can't do good target shooting with this rifle, lol.
You CAN do various target shooting for instance I think it is accurate enough for silhouette
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  #74  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:50 AM
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You CAN do various target shooting for instance I think it is accurate enough for silhouette
I just want to be able to get all 10s on the 10 shot rim fire target sheet
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  #75  
Old 05-09-2014, 05:50 PM
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I'm surprised nobody caught my math error, lol. My bolt head space measurements were actually 3.747 and 3.698 (still a .049 head space).

I remembered my belt sander has a 90 degree disc attachment, so I gave it a try. It doesn't take much! On the first check of sanding I was already exactly where I needed to be at 3.741.



I also took .008 off the firing pin to match.

I don't think I'll have issues with the extractors, because of how the design is on this gun.

Looking at a round sitting in the head space relief now, it's definitely close! Only trying it out will tell me if I created a slam fire machine, lol. If it doesn't slam fire, it's definitely got to hold that round there tighter.
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