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Old 05-22-2011, 03:25 PM
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Post reticles and variations of the German #4 that Premier Reticles used to offer...



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As some of you know I'm somewhat of reticle nut. While I don't have every reticle out there, I do have a few examples and just thought that I'd share some of the older post reticles and German #4's that I have along with some thoughts on what Premier Reticles used to offer and what Leupold still offers in regards to the German #1 and #4.


The Post & Crosshair reticle...

It's been said that this reticle was designed for soldiers who had trouble adapting to optics from iron sights. I don't know how true that is, but it often makes for great conversation.

I went nuts over the old Post & Crosshair reticle when my Dad gave me a 2.5x Lyman that had once been on an old sporterized 1903 Springfield that he had sold me years prior. This sparked my interest into reticles that deviated a bit from the normal duplex.

Premier Reticles was probably the last outfit that was installing the old P&C reticle in more modern Leupolds. I had them install a German #1 in a Leupold M8 4x and if I had known that their ties with Leupold & Stevens would be broken a couple of years later, I might have grabbed a few odd-balls that they once offered, but hind-sight is always 20/20.

I did stumble across an ad on Guns American for a little NIB Leupold FXII 2.5x with the P&C reticle that was installed by Premier prior to them ending this service. I paid a little too much for it, but I just had to have it.

This type with the tapered post is much like the P&C reticles in old Lymans, Redfields, and Weavers.

Premier talks in their old catalog of folks who prefer this reticle like it for shooting at moving game.

Here's a different example of a post and crosshair. It's kind of a mix of the P&C and the German #1 having the picket post with a crosshair instead of the side posts. It's in an old Japanese made Universal 4x32mm that I got for a nephew's 22.


Leupold did have another interesting version which I've heard referred to as a P&C. It has like standard crosshairs, but with a single vertical post that started at the bottom and extended to the center. I don't have an example and have only seen pics, but I'm not so fond of this as the vertical crosshair, that extends from the tip of the post to the top of the view, hinders the usefullness of the post on small targets as it subtends some of the view, although this wouldn't be a problem on larger targets such a deer.

Although most folks probably don't miss the Post & Crosshair reticles, I wish that they were still offered.


The German #1...

This is one of the oldest reticles that's still in use today next to standard crosswires... or crosshairs rather. It's not as well liked here in the states, but in Europe, it's supposed to be well liked for low light hunting... along with the #4.

Here's a German #1 from an old Tasco 4x which is another scope that I grabbed for another nephew's 22.


Here's the German #1 that's in one of my Leupold 4x rimfire scopes. This is pretty much the same as the one in my M8 that Premier installed.

Not everyone's a fan of the German number one. The great Chuck Hawks refers to it as the worst reticle, but I can't agree with everything that the man says. He has a point when it comes to using it for hold-overs as the post subtends much of the view, but for short to medium range in a low powered scope on a brush rifle... it's great in my opinion as well as in low light. I also have no problem using it or the P&C on a 22 on small targets out to 50 yards. Of course neither would be my choice for paper punching, but for plinking... I like em.

Leupold does not offer the P&C, but they do still offer the German #1.


The German #4...

Is much like duplex, but with squared-off posts that are a bit thicker than a standard duplex. Also, it's missing the top post and instead has a vertical crosswire that extends to the top of the view.

In regards to Leupold scopes, Premier Reticles once offered 3 versions of this reticle. The first is the #4, which they describe as having posts 4 times thicker than the normal Leupold's duplex. The second is the #4a which has the same thickness, but the posts are farther apart and spaced similar to that of a wide duplex. The third is the #4e which Premier describes as having posts 7 times thicker than the normal duplex and with the wide spacing like the #4a.

Burris calls their version the 3P#4 (3 post #4) which is pretty much like the standard #4... here's a look at it...


Here's Leupold's Post & Duplex which is an interesting cross between a German #4 and their heavy duplex.


I don't have an example of a #4a, but here is the #4e that I have in one of my Leupolds.

The #4e is the only #4 that Leupold currently offers and they refer to it as the #4.

It sure has some thick crosswires and is not much use for longer shots in my 2.5x, but it sure makes for a nice short/medium range woods reticle... and if you lose sight of this one, it's definitely time for some glasses.


Well... I hope you all enjoy the pics.

I really miss Premier Reticle's service... but I'm glad to have a few examples of what they once offered.

Last edited by JEE; 06-23-2018 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 05-22-2011, 04:02 PM
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I didn't know you had such a mean streak in you JEE. I spose if I miss the picket post that much I can always fork over for a Trijicon.
Great thread with pix.
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Old 05-22-2011, 04:22 PM
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JEE,

I didn't realize you had so many German#1s reticles.

Where are you suppose to zero the German#1 crosshairs, on the top of the "roof" peak of the vertical post? Why I ask, is because I notice that the root peak is above the horizontal center crosshairs. In fact, the center of the horizontal crosshairs seems to meet at the point of where the roof meets the sides of the house, so to speak, for the Japanese made Universal 4x32mm.
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
I didn't know you had such a mean streak in you JEE.
Just a little.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
I spose if I miss the picket post that much I can always fork over for a Trijicon.
You can always get a Leupold with one too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
Great thread with pix.
Thanks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MGT View Post
JEE,

I didn't realize you had so many German#1s reticles.
MGT,

I really only have the thicker Leupold one in the 4x rimfire special and the tapered Post and Crosshair in a Leupold 2.5x. I sold off the M8 that Premier did and the other two examples are on my nephews rifles, which I'm letting them have when they turn... ummm... 40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MGT View Post
Where are you suppose to zero the German#1 crosshairs, on the top of the "roof" peak of the vertical post? Why I ask, is because I notice that the root peak is above the horizontal center crosshairs. In fact, the center of the horizontal crosshairs seems to meet at the point of where the roof meets the sides of the house, so to speak, for the Japanese made Universal 4x32mm.
It only makes logical sense to me to sight in at very the tip of the post especially with the Post & Crosshair version the has the picket post as, like the German #1, the post just subtends too much of the target.

I have the P&C with the tapered post sighted-in about a 1/2" higher than the flat tip at 50 yards. It may be off a little at other ranges, but makes the 2.5x one heck of a golf ball plinker using a 6 o'clock hold placing the top of the post just touching the bottom of the ball... or empty shotgun sells, althought they can be a bit hard to... then again, all more the challenge.

Now I have thought about using the intersection of the tapered post and the horizontal crosswire as a secondary aiming point. Surely not on a smaller target like a squirrel or rabbit, but it might not subtend too much of a deer's shoulder.


As far as the German #4 goes, I love the one in the 4x Mini that I just had Burris install. It's funny, I finally obtain the scope that will accept this reticle and now I don't want it. Don't get me wrong, I love the looks of it, but the 4x Mini has the FOV of my Leupold 6x and I strongly want more FOV for my CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62x39mm so I shall stick with the 2.5x Leupold with the German #4e. It's like you always say "there's no free lunch in optics" and for the 4x Mini's compactness and long eye relief, I guess that the trade-off is a narrow FOV. It's still a nice scope though.

Another alternative which I've thought of having installed in one of my 2.5x scopes is the Leupold Post and Duplex reticle. It doesn't have the super heavy posts and is basically a Leupold Heavy Duplex lacking the top post with the vertical wire extending to the top of the view just like the German #4, only it doesn't have the squared-off posts. I had this reticle in a Leupold 6x, but sold it in favor of a finer duplex and then started looking for a true German #4 in a lower powered scope for my other rifle... and now it seems that I'm coming around full circle.


The madness continues.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:23 AM
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Jee, I love the post reticle! I have an old Weaver k4 with that set up and my eyes just seem to work better with it than a duplex or fine crosshair. Who's making them these days? The Trijicon post and triangle seem to be the closest I can find.
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:46 AM
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Hi buckyrocks,

No one to my knowledge makes the old Post & Crosshair reticles anymore like the first two pics that I posted, at least not for modern scopes, but outfits like Iron Sights will install them (option #2), along with the German #1, in older Weavers and Redfields.
http://www.ironsightinc.com/#!__redfield-repairs

Leupold doesn't offer the P&C, but they do still offer the German #1 and will install it in just about any of their scopes for a fee, which is usually around $50ish.

I wish that Premier Reticles still offered their services for Leupold and Burris scopes as they had a lot more options than Leupold's custom shop. There were not really any variations of the P&C that Premier offered, but as I mentioned they had three variations of the #4 as well as different thicknesses of plain crosshairs which now Leupold only has one of each, being the thickest #4 and the finest crosshairs. Leupold does still offer different sizes of their dot reticles as Premier did.

Unfortunately, the market dictates what stays and what goes, and it's understandable that some of the old options have gone away... especially when companies are fighting to survive, but I do applaud Leupold for at least offering what they still do, which is a lot more than most companies.

Last edited by JEE; 05-24-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:03 PM
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great thread!! Thanks for posting
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:40 PM
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I have a post and crosshair in a 4x Weaver. It is on my deer rifle for use in the wooded/swampy areas.

I have to remember where to sight the thing in-where the post and crosshairs meet or on top of the post.

I believe "on top the post' should be considered the point of aim and on my 300 Savage (Savage 99) I sight in about 1" high at 100 yds. That way Im good to about 150 yards-point blank, maybe a little more. That is kinda al long shot for most of my hunting area.

At my sons could get a little longer shot but I usually pass on those. Im not a 3-5 hundred yuard shooter like some. Here, most places you cant even see the deer at those ranges. On the other hand, many 365 yd shots are more likely 140 when it comes right down to it.
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:09 PM
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German #4

I have the Nikon Monarch African 1-4 X 20 with the German #4 reticle on my 527 7.62 Carbine. Best I've seen for a close-in brush gun. Not real expensive either, under $300, and lifetime warranty.
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:21 PM
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Hi Jetboater,

I've never seen Nikon's German #4 and I'm curious how it compares to what Premier refers to as the standard #4 (the Burris 3P#4 above is a good example shown above), the #4a (not shown, but described as having a wider spaced fine center), or the much thicker #4e (an example from a Leupold shown above).

A pic would be awesome, but in your opinion, is Nikon's closer to the standard #4?


Some great info >here< in this Premier Reticles PDF.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:16 PM
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Monarch #4

The Nikon is very thick, but fine enough in the middle for any range. I'll see if I can get a picture.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:19 PM
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Several years ago I purchased a used SA 54. It came with an old 6 power Bushnell Scopechief IV-M scope on it that was probably the same vintage as the 54. My first thought was to change to a new modern more powerful scope, but after shooting it I was amassed by it's clarity. Then I noticed an extra ring on the scope with a + and P mark. When I switched it to the P, a post flipped up covering the bottom half of the vertical reticle. I believe it was called Command Post.
The post soon became my favorite for offhand shooting.
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Old 11-28-2013, 05:35 PM
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JEE
Thank you for the pictures and text.

I had a picket post and crosswire fitted to a scope about fifteen years ago for Running Boar shooting and varmint use. I zeroed to the apex of the triangular tip when sighting in prone but when I brought the rifle up for Running Boar shooting I found myself automatically centring the whole of the equilateral triangle tip on the target! Another older shooter had fallen into the same trap several years earlier.

This problem appears to occur more with the picket post and crosswire than with the No. 1 reticle BUT I have seen several 1950's German hunting scopes (originally sold in Sweden) with No. 1 reticle, which had flatter points.

That being said, I think that it is much like the lazier modern gun writers who complain about accuracy issues with iron sights whilst clearly revealing in the text that they failed to carry out the necessary positional dry-firing practice before using said sights.

Practise, analyse, practise some more and take notes as necessary in a cheap, light school type notebook dedicated to that rifle. Different sights require slightly different practices.

Last edited by ZG47; 11-28-2013 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:22 PM
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JEE, I know this is an old thread and found it quite interesting. Thanks ! I have an old 2-7 Leupold with a reticle that is different than anything you posted. Thought you may have an idea if it is a Leupold reticle or aftermarket. The vertical post is heavier than the side horizontal wires and extends further towards the center. Here is a pic



I really like this reticle, wish Leupold still offered something close to it.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:58 PM
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JEE,

Thanks for the reticle primer.

Like you, I had sent many scopes (probably six or seven of them) to Premier Reticle back in the day, and was gob-smacked when they stopped working on Leupold scopes altogether. It was never clear why this corporate falling out occurred, but I was very disappointed to see the options for reticles narrowed so suddenly and so severely. Anyone know the real story for why Premier stopped working on Leupolds?

BRP
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