Win 52 Trigger Info - Page 5 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 02-09-2013, 06:31 PM
541X's Avatar
541X
US Navy Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Sep 2007
Location: 
NJ Shore
Posts: 
502
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)


Log in to see fewer ads
Same suggestion I got from Voelker. Got it backed out to ~1.5#, so now the hunt for a lighter spring begins.

My Geisielle XTC rifle trigger comes with high-pressure grease that one puts on the sear. Should I do the same with this trigger?

Last edited by 541X; 02-10-2013 at 07:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:27 PM
saxmaneagle
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Jan 2013
Location: 
20 acre farm, Minnesota
Posts: 
167
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Some Thomas trigger pics...

http://s1299.beta.photobucket.com/us...omas%20Trigger
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-15-2013, 01:26 PM
saxmaneagle
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Jan 2013
Location: 
20 acre farm, Minnesota
Posts: 
167
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Also, pics of a 52-1A canjar trigger - going to install on a 52B

http://s1299.beta.photobucket.com/us...njar%20Trigger
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #64  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:58 PM
Scot Thompson

Join Date: 
Jul 2011
Location: 
Western North Carolina
Posts: 
171
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Win 52D with C-type Trigger Adjustments

Part 1 of 2 parts

Winchester Model 52D with C-Type Trigger Adjustment
By Scot Thompson
February 28, 2013
This is an article describing my own evaluation of the design, functionality, and adjustment of a Winchester Model 52D trigger. The particular Win 52D I assessed is an early production model and it has the C-Type trigger. I am not a gunsmith, nor a machinist, so please take responsibility yourself for any actions you may take as a result of reading this article. I wrote this for myself and am willing to share it with others without any assumption of liability. Please use at your own risk. Make sure your rifle is unloaded!
The Win 52D was manufactured with a version of Winchester’s Micro-Motion trigger. In its initial release, Winchester produced the D Model with the C Model trigger; the only difference is the manner in which the trigger guard was mounted. I understand the trigger assembly is otherwise the C-Type trigger. Later in the D and E Model production, Winchester modified the trigger assembly to create a higher leverage ratio of the components. The two trigger types, C and D/E, are very similar in terms of the adjustments. Regarding adjustment mechanisms, the principal difference is in the Sear Engagement mechanism. I’ll write more on that later, but first let’s look at the trigger design for the C-Type.
I’ll use the following schematic I found published at the Rimfire Central website and that is in the public domain; I understand it came the introductory brochure for the Win 52C released by Winchester in 1951.



For clarification, Screw # 13 is the Overtravel adjustment, Screw #14 is the trigger Pull Force adjustment screw, Screw #15 is the Sear Engagement adjustment. #8 is the Trigger that rotates on a Pivot Pin #9. The Trigger Lever is #7 and the Rocker is # 5, the Sear is #3 and the Firing Pin is #1. Loosening the clamping screws on the left side of the trigger housing will allow the adjustment screws to be turned. Don’t forget to re-tighten them!


Above is the C-Type Clamping Screw

These are the D/E Type Clamping Screws

The Trigger #8 pivots on its Pivot Pin #9. When the Trigger #8 is pulled by your finger, it causes the top of the Trigger to contact the Trigger Lever #7 at the Point of Contact #10. I made some rough measurements of the mechanical levers to calculate the approximate leverage ratios of this trigger assembly. I did not make precise measurements, but they will suffice for explanatory purposes. I have also assumed an orthogonal and linear system and that is not perfectly correct, but for the very small movements discussed, it is good enough. The ratio of the trigger from where you pull it to where the top of the trigger meets the trigger lever at point #10 is about 3:4 as measured from each respective point to the pivot point. If you pull the trigger 0.003”, the top of the trigger at Point #10 moves about 0.004”. This ratio also applies to an applied force in reverse: pull the trigger with 4 oz and the trigger lever at Point #10 sees about 3 oz. Again this is approximate because your finger does not pull at a single point and probably not in a perfectly straight direction either. But, let’s confine the discussion to motion vs. force as that is what Micro-Motion design is all about.
The Trigger Lever #7 is the real motion multiplier in this system. The ratio of the trigger lever is about 1:8. Move Point #10 about 0.001” and 0.008” is transmitted to the point where the trigger lever meets the Rocker #5. Or, in our example, a 0.003” pull at the trigger results in a 0.032” movement at the Rocker! Pretty cool! Rounding things off, the Micro-Motion Trigger functions at about a 1:10 ratio overall. That is why it is micro motion: pull a little, get a big motion at the other end. You can see why the system is very responsive to inputs.
With all this mechanical advantage built into the system, what do the adjustment screws do? Screw #14 is the Pull Force adjustment: it is loaded with a spring against the underside of the Trigger Lever and you can adjust the amount of spring force with the screw. This spring resists the downward, clockwise rotation of the Trigger Lever. Increase the Pull Force by turning it clockwise (CW). The Sear Engagement Screw #15 controls the amount of overlap of the mating shoulders of the Trigger Lever and the Rocker. In other words, the amount of engagement of those two shoulders is controlled by the Sear Engagement Screw #15.


Picture courtesy of SEEWIN, C-Type at top, D/E-Type at bottom

By the way, the Rocker #5 adds some leverage to the force of the #1 Firing Pin’s Mainspring # 2 which pushes downward on the Sear #3 and on to the Rocker as it pushes forward on the shoulder of the Trigger Lever #7. But, a main purpose of the Rocker is to act as a connector or switch, if you will. Think of it as a gate latch: pull the trigger, the trigger lever releases the gate latch and the sear falls releasing the firing pin. The shooter does not “feel” the leverage of the Rocker; he feels the force necessary to release the gate latch. I find it interesting that the Sear Engagement Screw is truly a Rocker engagement screw.
The remaining screw, the Overtravel Screw #13, limits the amount of clockwise motion the Trigger Lever (and hence the trigger itself) will see once the Rocker is tripped. This is important in a target rifle because any further motion after the firing pin is released may cause unwanted motion to the barrel. However, the over travel does not affect the sear release providing there is sufficient over travel to allow the trigger lever to release the rocker. When adjusting this trigger, the Overtravel needs to be backed out of the way.
Any trigger adjustments should be made to a clean and properly lubricated trigger and bolt assemblies. That is a topic not addressed here. Nonetheless, make sure yours is clean and lubricated before adjustments are made.



This is the Win 52D, C-Type trigger. Note the spring at the top of the #15 Sear Engagement screw. This is the difference between a “C” trigger and the “D & E” triggers other than the geometry changes. On the C Trigger, the Engagement Screw has a spring that was apparently intended to reduce vibration felt when pulling the trigger. This Engagement Screw moves the Trigger Lever downward (CW) at its forward end and hence controls the amount of overlap of the mating shoulders of the Trigger Lever and the Rocker. On the D & E triggers, there is no anti-vibration spring but the adjustment of the engagement between the Trigger Lever and the Rocker is the same as that of the C trigger.
Please note that Winchester did not intend for the gun owner to adjust the Sear Engagement Screw, so if you choose to do so, please be careful what you do. The Sear Engagement is the most important aspect of the trigger adjustment; care must be taken in setting it. One might be tempted to set the engagement too small because that lowers perceived pull force. Indeed it will, but a very low setting can create an unsafe condition, it can cause premature wear of both the rocker and the trigger lever both of which are made of very hard steel that can fracture at the edges. Premature wear resulting from too low a sear engagement setting may cause the trigger to fail to set properly or to have an inconsistent release. So, understand what you are doing and be careful. For instance, wear at the Rocker and Trigger Lever may require more overlap to be safe.

PART 2 next
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 02-28-2013, 01:04 PM
Scot Thompson

Join Date: 
Jul 2011
Location: 
Western North Carolina
Posts: 
171
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
This is Part 2 of 2



The method I choose to adjust these triggers is to first back out the #13 and #14 screws ½ to 1 turn counterclockwise (CCW). Write down what you do. All of these screws are RH threads, but with the Engagement Screw, turning it “in, or CW, will maximize the amount of overlap between the Trigger Lever and the Rocker. In other words, it maximizes the amount of engagement between the Trigger Lever and the Rocker and hence makes the trigger harder to pull. During this adjustment, the Overtravel Screw #13 must be disengaged from the Trigger Lever, but the Pull Force Screw #14 still has to apply some force upward on the Trigger Lever. So, I don’t back the #14 Screw off so far that it doesn’t lift the Trigger Lever. At this point, there are several techniques people use. One method is to turn the #15 screw in ½ to 1 turn CW. Cock the bolt of your unloaded rifle. Make sure the Safety can be engaged and then disengaged without releasing the firing pin. From this state, safety off, turn the Engagement Screw #15 CCW slowly until it forces the Trigger Lever down sufficiently so as to release the Rocker (and hence Sear and Firing Pin). Then turn the Engagement Screw #15 back in (CW) to increase the amount of engagement. Remember, too small an amount of engagement or overlap can create an unsafe condition and cause unwanted wear.
I think it best to make the Sear Engagement adjustment with the bolt cocked so the Rocker and Trigger Lever are fully stressed as in a ready to fire condition.


Above is a bottom view of the C-Type trigger, the D &E should look the same from this view

Another way is to look at the overlap, or amount of engagement, and observe when the overlap is 50% to 70% of the full engagement available. Experienced gunsmiths probably do it this way. Your rifle may have some wear on the Rocker and Trigger Lever mating surfaces. And, if so, you’ll have to adjust accordingly. A minimum overlap on a factory new trigger may not provide sufficient margin of safety with a worn trigger. So assure you have enough overlap surfaces to be safe. The way I prefer is perhaps a little more precise or repeatable: As before, turn out the Overtravel Screw #13 ½ to 1 turn CCW to get it out of the way. Leave the #14 Pull Force alone, or back it out CCW ½ to 1 turn if it has been dinked with since the factory set it. But, there has to be enough spring force on the Trigger Lever from the Pull Force Screw #14 to keep it fully up. Then, using a magnifying glass, turn the Sear Engagement Screw #15 in CW until the Spring/Washer totally disengages from the end of the Trigger Lever. Make a gap that you can see clearly. Then being observant, turn the Engagement Screw #15 out, or CCW, so as to bring the washer to the point of contact with the end of the Trigger Lever. Note the position of the Screw #15 head. Check your safety. With the bolt cocked, note the number of turns required to release the Rocker and firing pin. On my rifle, this was 7/8th of a turn. Now you know that it takes 7/8ths of a turn from the point the Engagement Screw #15 engages the Trigger Lever to the point the firing pin releases. Then turn the Engagement Screw #15 in one-half that distance; in my case that was 3/8th to ½ turn CW. I like this method because it puts you centered on the shoulders, or mid-way in the engagement. However, I found this to be too “light” or requiring insufficient amount of movement before the rocker is released. But I at least knew what the limits of the adjustment were and I eventually settled on about ¾ of a turn CW from the point of release. Remember, too light is not safe and can cause damage. Make sure the bolt will cock and the safety will work.



One member of RFC inspected a NITB Win 52C from the 1950s and found that factory setting to be about 50% of the full available engagement. The Pull Force on that rifle was set at 3lb-8oz, as a reference. Whichever way you choose to set the Engagement Screw, you can then adjust the Pull Force Screw #14 to a desirable, but safe pull force. Double check the safety. You do not want inadvertent firings, so cock the bolt and make sure the firing pin will stay cocked even with some impact to the action. (I do all this cocking and firing with a snap cap, or spent round in the chamber.) If all is well, you are ready to adjust the Overtravel. The factory setting for Pull Force on that above mentioned 52C was 2 ¼ turns out from full in, again it pulled at 3lb-8oz.
Turn the Overtravel Screw #13 in CW until it barely touches the Trigger Lever. Using a magnifying glass will help. Again, cock the bolt and adjust the overtravel so there is perhaps 0.003” to 0.005” of overtravel after release of the sear. Note that if the overtravel is adjusted too tight the rocker will not release from the trigger lever or it will drag on the trigger lever when fired. Neither is a desirable situation. By way of reference, a NITB 52C had a setting of 1-1/2 turns out from full in. Below is a properly adjusted C-Type Engagement.



Photo courtesy of SEEWIN, this trigger is new and has no wear.

There is a balance between the Pull Force and the Sear Engagement that you must find by trial and error to suit your needs. Turn the #14 Pull Force Screw CW to increase pull force, and CCW to decrease it. Turn the #15 Engagement Screw CW to increase the overlap: this increases the trigger pull force. In other words, turn #14 CW to increase pull force, turn #15 CW to also increase Pull Force but stay within the bounds you found above. Write down what you do. Make small adjustments in 1/16th to 1/8th increments or less. Find the balance between Pull Force and Sear Engagement but put safety first and secondly that low pull weight you might be seeking. Winchester designed the 52C to have a pull force of at least 3lbs. Always make sure the Safety will engage at any setting and that it will release without inadvertently firing. Make sure the bolt will cock properly and not “fire” if bumped. You will find this procedure to be somewhat iterative. If you made adjustments with the barrel and action out of the wood, double check your results when you re-install it. I found that tightening the rear screw on the Win 52D I have had an impact to my settings and I re-adjusted by taking the trigger guard off, tweaking the adjustments and re-installing the guard.
Remember, the satisfying trigger and a safe trigger is a balance between the #14 and #15 adjustment screws with a properly set overtravel screw. Be safe, shoot well.
[Many thanks to those at RimFire Central who helped me compose this article. You know who you are!]
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 03-02-2013, 09:06 PM
shakey's Avatar
shakey
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2005
Location: 
Mansfield,TX
Posts: 
4,385
TPC Rating: 
100% (17)
Smile

Thanks Scot, Great STuff!
Dale
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:38 PM
Buckshot1822's Avatar
Buckshot1822
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2007
Location: 
Central, Pa
Posts: 
223
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Kenyon Trigger Bolt Removal Tool

Here are a few pictures of the tool that Karl made to remove the bolt from guns with his trigger.....

This is accomplished by hooking the notch in the bolt release knob with this tool, and pulling the sear down, allowing you to remove the bolt.....





Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 04-23-2013, 09:04 PM
Austin1

Join Date: 
Nov 2003
Posts: 
208
TPC Rating: 
100% (13)
Winchester 52B Kenyon Trigger

Was fortunate to find a Kenyon 52B trigger today, thought I would share the photos


Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 05-23-2013, 07:33 PM
dgapilot is online now
US Navy NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
May 2013
Location: 
Maryland
Posts: 
211
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
52B spring kit on eBay

Has anyone tried this spring kit for the 52B trigger that is on eBay? Just wondering if it actually works and what results you may have gotten.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 05-23-2013, 09:29 PM
Seewin
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2003
Location: 
MO
Posts: 
3,207
TPC Rating: 
100% (59)
I'm afraid once a B trigger, always a B trigger. It is the design that limits the weight of pull. You can completely remove the spring and it is still heavy. It is a basic 2 lever design where physics limitations are culprit. It will never compete with the more modern 3 lever designs.
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 07-06-2013, 04:12 PM
FredJ_2008
US Air Force NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2008
Location: 
S. Tex
Posts: 
303
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Win 52 Repo (Japan)

Are the any breakdown instructions available for these triggers? I know they have lawyer triggers, but I still would like to know how they work and the best way to deal with them.
Everything seems similar except for the lack of a sear adjustment screw. There is also a roll pin the prevents adjusting below the lawyer recommended trigger pull. The sear transfer bar is the same as the Factory 52 C,D & E. Just looking at it, something looks different, but it must be totally broken down to see it.


Last edited by FredJ_2008; 07-08-2013 at 01:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 10-22-2013, 04:08 AM
Doc Sharptail

Join Date: 
Feb 2003
Location: 
The Escarpment
Posts: 
472
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Thanks for the photo, Fred J.

I can tell you with the lawyer pin removed, it is possible to turn the pull weight screw down far enough that the sear will not catch for cocking on the bottom of the bolt.

Seems the only quick remedy for this situation is a lighter tension spring for the pull weight screw....

Has anyone been brave enough to tear down one of the repro triggers themselves?

Regards,

Doc Sharptail
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 01-23-2014, 08:27 PM
Buckshot1822's Avatar
Buckshot1822
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2007
Location: 
Central, Pa
Posts: 
223
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Kenyon instructions

I already uploaded it to post in a thread, so I'll put it here too..........Instructions for the Kenyon trigger for the 52 C/D/E

(This Image is Too Large to Be Displayed Within the Post. Click Link to View) (1143 kB)
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 05-05-2014, 05:58 PM
Graft213

Join Date: 
Nov 2010
Posts: 
34
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Canjar 52C Trigger Instructions - Reproduction

I was fortunate enough to buy a Canjar 52C trigger a few years back which came with the original instruction sheet. Unfortunately, the instruction sheet looked like it had been photocopied several times then left in the sun for a couple of years. I ended up replicating the instruction sheet for one reason or another, then forgot about it. Anyway, I found the replica sheet and thought it might be of use to Win 52 RFC fans.

DISCLAIMER: Use at your own risk.

Original:


Rerpoduction:
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05-21-2014, 12:37 PM
rsweet47
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
May 2014
Location: 
Maryland
Posts: 
6
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I am new to the forum looking for bolt removal info. I inherited a 52 no letter, SN#
383xx, which is either a pre A or a non lettered A but don't know for sure. It has the trigger shown on page two of this thread that Seewin has identified as a model B trigger so I am confused and would appreciate any info you could provide. There is only a barreled action in a well made homemade short LOP stock, probably made for a young shooter. There is no "lower" hardware, i.e. mag housing, trigger guard, barrel band, etc. Great shooter, 9 out of 10 in a ragged hole covered by a dime at 50 yards.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x