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  #1  
Old 09-01-2019, 04:03 PM
peterw

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How do you define a "Flyer"?



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What is a flyer to you? People report "brand X gives me a couple of flyers every box" when they mean one of the shots was at the edge of a 0.25 inch group at 1000 yards. To some it means they miss the side of a barn from the inside now and then.

This is significant in that reporting "flyers" doesn't convey information does it?
Its hard enough for me to determine if its me or the ammo sometimes but it really hit home when I was consistently shooting (for me) small groups and a ten shot string felt really good. A look at the target confirms a tight group but one shot entirely missed even the backing board. This happened consistently 2 to 3 shots out of every packet, good group but one entirely missing.

Can flyers be that bad?
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2019, 07:18 AM
john the plinker
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What I call a flyer is any shot that causes a group to be significantly larger than the average for that particular ammo. Example: the average for the ammo is .4". A group has 4 shots in .375", one shot opens the group to .65". That is a flyer. Four shots in .375", then 1 opens it up to .45", not a flyer.
Kinda hard to give a numeric value as IMHO its more of a proportional thing. I tend to go with about 15%.
In my testing and records if the flyer is operator induced I ignore the shot and fire another one. If it is ammo/gun induced I make a note but include the shot in overall group size.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:15 AM
jaia
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If there is an obvious explanation for the cause, it's my error, not a flyer.
This would include misjudging wind, unstable body mechanics or poor setup.
If it is not related to anything I can compensate for, or correct, it's a stray or flyer.
This usually means ammunition related problems which would be: vertical spread
caused by muzzle velocity differences and unpredictable trajectories due
to visible cartridge defects. If the cartridge is not symmetric, shows variations
in seating angle/depth, has smeared/damaged/irregular drive bands, has dents/dings
or scratches on the bullet surface, it will stray as a result of aerodynamic interactions.
Strays are ammunition related, anything else is shooter error.

examples:

Cartridge defect...

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...&postcount=788

Velocity spread...

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...&postcount=698

Last edited by jaia; 09-06-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:23 AM
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john the plinker View Post
Kinda hard to give a numeric value as IMHO its more of a proportional thing.
To paraphrase Sesame Street, is one of these shots not like the others?

If I've a barrel that shoots a 10 shot group of CCI SV in a round, evenly distributed two inch group, none of those are flyers. If that barrel shoots seven of 10 Remington Golden bullets into a .75 inch group, but has three of the 10 high, low and to the side to make it a two inch group, those three are fliers.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:43 AM
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A flyer is what one covers up with a dime to show what would be an otherwise bragging group @ 50-200 yds..
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:06 AM
jaia
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A flyer is what one covers up with a dime to show what would be an otherwise bragging group @ 50-200 yds.

What he said!
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:44 PM
sof
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For me, a flyer is when I have done my part, and the shot feels right, but the result just doesn't belong with the rest of the group. A lot depends on the kind of day I'm having and if I'm shooting well, a flyer can be an inch or so whereas when I'm sloppy, flyers are a bit further from the main group. I try to keep it ammo related, but if I'm shooting the cheaper stuff, flyers are further out than if it was better ammo, so RWS50 is judged a lot harder than Aguila or CCI. And target distance has the same effect, a 50 yard flyer and 100 yarder are not the same.

My view is kind of subjective I know so the opinion of the other guys around here is very interesting to me.
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:25 PM
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I so want to call my error a 'flyer' to imply it is unaccountable; ie, bad ammo, rather than I Pulled The Shot.
Long ago I determined to man-up and claim em all, the bad shots with the good.
But Jaia's thread '50 at 200' has shown me that a good number of those may not be me; now I have to figure out how to tell......
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:01 PM
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It's the oops shot that everyone wants to blame on the ammo, instead of themselves or the gun. And yes you should include it in your group, you fired it didn't you?
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al the Infidel View Post
A flyer is what one covers up with a dime to show what would be an otherwise bragging group @ 50-200 yds..


For me a flyer is defined on the basis of the gun and ammo being used. If you are familiar with how a gun shoots a specific ammo then you know what is "normal" for that combination and a shot that falls "significantly" outside the expected range is a potential flyer. So for some setups, and flyer may be a 1/4" deviation from a tiny group. In another case, it may be a 6" bullet hole outside a three inch group. The poorer the accuracy, the harder it can be to define flyers.

Some guns will shoot some ammo very well, but will occasionally throw a shot even with the best of ammo due to bedding issues, etc. Virtually all ammo is subject to an occasional out of spec round that will not fall within the bell curve that one expects. No ammo is perfect.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:25 PM
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A flyer is a round that does not land within the 1" target I am aiming for. I want to see holes touching each other in paper. If one strays, it's a flyer.

I'm blaming the ammo.

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  #12  
Old 09-06-2019, 04:53 PM
Pat McCoy
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Quote:
I was consistently shooting (for me) small groups and a ten shot string felt really good. A look at the target confirms a tight group but one shot entirely missed even the backing board. This happened consistently 2 to 3 shots out of every packet, good group but one entirely missing.
IF your "good" groups were 1 minute or less, I'd bet you need to inspect the target better for any "doubles.

If your "good" groups were 3-4 minutes or larger, yep a flyer could have been off the paper.

Are you calling your shots? To me a "flier" is a shot that is off my call. If I'm shooting a 1 minute group, and call a shot slightly out at 10 o'clock and it lands there - that is not a flier. If I call the shot "good" (as being in the group), but it is elsewhere that MAY be a flier (if I cannot account for it otherwise, like wind, inconsistent set-up, trigger operation, loss of concentration, etc).
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:26 PM
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Flyer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterw View Post
What is a flyer to you? People report "brand X gives me a couple of flyers every box" when they mean one of the shots was at the edge of a 0.25 inch group at 1000 yards. To some it means they miss the side of a barn from the inside now and then.

This is significant in that reporting "flyers" doesn't convey information does it?
Its hard enough for me to determine if its me or the ammo sometimes but it really hit home when I was consistently shooting (for me) small groups and a ten shot string felt really good. A look at the target confirms a tight group but one shot entirely missed even the backing board. This happened consistently 2 to 3 shots out of every packet, good group but one entirely missing.

Can flyers be that bad?
"9 of ten are in a nice group and one didn't even hit the backer board" When that happens to me its not a flyer... I neglected to top off the magazine
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:41 PM
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I think this is kinda the wrong question. I frequently use the term flyer. I have NO definition. it is just a saying, a word. Not science. In reality shot impacts should follow a normal distribution. I guess. That means to me a bullet can hit anywhere if you shoot enough. And every where in between.

Think about it. If you think you have a 1" at 50 yard gun. Some shots will occasionally open up to 1.2, 1.6 2 anything. There is no way to draw a line on slang talk. Either you resort to statistics or you measure groups and ALL shots count. You can average the groups. A person can also shoot for score. That gives a better measure than only counting the worse case shots. And better than mentally tossing the bad one out as 'flyers'. And-There is no blaming yourself. They all count.

If flyers is the wrong question, how to measure a guns accuracy is the right question. That question can get real deep, real fast.
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:24 PM
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Like everything in life, Its a lot of If's, But's and Why's.

If my rifle/ammo/myself combo is working well and shots are mainly 10's, 9's or the odd one just clipping the 8 on a 50yd BR tgt, then for me a flyer is the 6 ring plus.

I find it hard to call a flyer sometimes and IMHO I think wind is a major factor. We have changeable & gusty wind more often than not, plus a berm left & right, I have seen six flags in a row and none pointing in the same direction.

Giz
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