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  #16  
Old 08-17-2018, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varmit hunter67 View Post
I'm just an old codger that grew up on blue collar wages, but was still a degree'd type person. I still like to do the best I can without spending money I don't have or feel I can do the same with something less expensive.

I have just had very good targets with Aquilla SE HV. Looking at a lot of the targets
presented, I think I have done as well without buying the high priced spreads.


VH
I'm all in on saving money, so I would be interested in seeing some 50 yards targets shot with that Aquila ammo that are as good or better than those presented above. Why waste money?
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  #17  
Old 08-17-2018, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H. View Post
Bill: Why do you say testing at 25 yards is worthless? For quite sometime I test at 25 yards first to "cull the herd" so to speak. If the ammunition I am testing works very well at 25 yards then I take it out to 50 for phase 2 testing. If it doesn't do well at 25 yards then I save some time for myself and steps to and from 50 yards and cease further testing on that lot or brand of ammunition. I can almost always tell at 25 yards if the ammunition I am testing is worthwhile taking out further.


Rick H.
Not responding for Bill (M52E1), but some observations of my own. I'm a prone shooter, so ammo must shoot well at 100. Quite a bit of ammo that looks good at 50 falls apart at 100. We do all of our testing at the most demanding range, which is 100 for us. Most of the prone shooters do the same. If you are going to be shooting 50 yd. max, then I agree with Bill -- 25 yds is not going to be a reliable indicator of how well this ammo will shoot at 50 in that particular rifle.
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  #18  
Old 08-17-2018, 11:32 PM
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Valuable information here for me. Thanks for the input. The tiny groups I shot with the R-50 was done with a Rock Jr. front rest... which was much closer to the receiver. Second spazm. Took the Caldwell BR and used the front stock bump hoping to get even better groups. That put the front rest rather forward. This is where things got ugly. The groups were awful. I know now to get the front bag as close to the action as possible, at least as close as possible without the fear of a teetertotter happening. Took some sand out of the Protektor medium front bag to get a better "grip", and got the front stock bump out of the way on the BR front rest. I don't mind shooting USBR using some of the best ammo, and if I'm lucky enough to shoot as well as the targets posted, I foresee a pantry full of beans and rice. If I can shoot a 250 at 50 yards, it will be worth it. I was so concerned about the lack of accuracy, I got it home and put the borescope to it. I was really surprised to find carbon buildup about 8 o'clock in the chamber. Got it out quickly with a pistol nylon brush / rod and some C4. After trying Hoppe's Elite for a while, I really have determined that the Bore Tech products may be the best for this type (brand) of quality barrel. All suggestion will be taken to heart and tried, will see what works for this beautiful rifle.
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  #19  
Old 08-18-2018, 09:16 AM
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Same Rifle (52D) different results.

I will go along with Pump, upper end ammo is the only way to go. Once in awhile you may find a lot of target ammo that does well, but in the long haul, Eley Match or Lapua CX, Midas, is the way to go. Even then it's tough to find a really good lot.




Eley Match



Norma Tac22
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  #20  
Old 08-18-2018, 10:38 AM
M52E1
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My experience with testing and evaluating ammunition at 50' or 75':

- The closer ranges do not allow the tester to see shot to shot dispersion/variability that occurs as the target is moved out to 50 yards, 50 meters or 100 yards
- The first time I tested at Lapua it was very interesting to see the "outlier" shots in a ten shot group at 50 yards as some of the time they were also slightly out at 100 yards, however more often than not they were significantly out at 100 yards
- An example would be a 10 shot group at 50 meters that was 16mm (okay - not great) that often would be 30mm or more at 100 yards
- What I did find interesting was that when a group shot extremely well at 50 yards most times it did as well at 100 yards. However, the number of lots that shot well at both distances was fairly small

Several years ago a very good fellow prone shooter I know tested some Wolf Match Extra at 25 yards and after finding a "good lot" he purchased 3-4 cases. I was shooting near him when he used it in his first match and after about 4 targets and multiple fliers he put it away for good and went back to his previous lot of ammunition. His next step was to only test and shoot Eley Tenex and the results were immediate as he has fired multiple 1600 scores with it.

Please understand that I am not recommending that people go out and immediately test or purchase Tenex or Midas Plus (Personally I wouldn't purchase either of them without testing given their price). What I am saying is that testing at 50 or 100 yards using a standard testing routine will give the shooter the best chance of identifying the best lot of ammunition for their rifle.

Some of my best overall scores have been shot with Eley Match that I tested prior to purchase. My test routine in those days was to test from the shoulder at 50 yards and 100 yards shooting multiple 10 shot groups. Once I found something I liked I would purchase another 500 rounds and shoot it during an anysight (scope) day of a 3200 match. If I liked those results I would typically purchase all that was available so that I had enough for some period of time to come.

Bill

Last edited by M52E1; 08-18-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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  #21  
Old 08-18-2018, 05:54 PM
Rick H.
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SBS and M52E1: Thanks for the replies and I understand what you are saying/trying to explain. As I said earlier I normally start any test of ammunition at 25 yards and work out from there. If a certain brand or lot of ammunition doesn't look promising at 25 yards, it won't look any better at 50 or 100 yards. At least that's been my experience. I guess in a way I am saving myself some steps by starting at 25 yards, plus in my case, I know full well I can hold "tight" at 25 yards before going further out. Certainly some potentially good performing ammunition at 25 yards will show not so good results at 50 and ultimately 100, but 100 is as far as I go with rimfire stuff anyway. Plus where I shoot there are usually varying wind conditions that can play havoc with testing at 100 yards. Thanks again...

Rick H.
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  #22  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pump .22s View Post
I'm all in on saving money, so I would be interested in seeing some 50 yards targets shot with that Aquila ammo that are as good or better than those presented above. Why waste money?
How about this?
[IMG][/IMG]

This is a second target with a different .22.

[IMG][/IMG]

The low/right was a called 'operator error' at the time of the shot.

These were both shot with Zastava CZ99s. The first is my Model Five Remington, the second with a Cabella's CZ99 I bought a couple years ago.
VH

Last edited by varmit hunter67; 08-19-2018 at 10:44 AM.
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  #23  
Old 08-19-2018, 11:35 AM
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The next two were both with my Mdl Five iirc. This was with some Winchester 333s which are not a preferred brand, but what I had in my bag at the the time.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

The hole at 6 o'clock was the existing hole, two rounds were shot at the hole...

I have shot 10 consecutive rounds with the Mdl 5 through a single hole smaller than the one above.
[IMG][/IMG]
The above was with some Geco Pistol. I have had some good results with this brand also.

VH
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  #24  
Old 08-19-2018, 01:45 PM
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Varmint Hunter, perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post where I took it that you were saying your Aguila ammo would shoot as good or better than the targets like I posted. From what I can see, and while you have very respectable targets there, the fifty yard groupings would indicate that the ammo would not be competitive in something like an IR 50/50 bench rest match, nor would it provide the optimal accuracy in the average Model 52 rifle. If you would care to shoot a couple of IR 50/50 type targets at fifty yards with your Aguila ammo, I would love to see the results. And frankly, I'm with a lot of folks that don't bother testing ammo at 25 yards, as I feel lots of low end ammo will do well at that distance. I think you have to get out to at least 50 yards to really start getting useful information about ammo performance in a rifle.



So, I guess it depends on what degree of accuracy one is looking for. Which brings us back to the OP's original post. I suggested top of the line ammo IF he wanted to really know what his gun was capable of. There are some very good reasons why competitive shooters spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on top of the line ammo each year. If they could get by with inexpensive ammo, I assure you they would be all over it. One can specify a price range and ask what ammo is best in that price range of course.



Again, no disrespect meant, and I do respect and appreciate your thoughts on this, but I think we may be talking about two different things here.

Last edited by pump .22s; 08-19-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-20-2018, 09:51 PM
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Gentlemen, I am just a trigger yanker. My 52E shoots best for me using Eley EPS.
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  #26  
Old 08-25-2018, 05:13 PM
MK111
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I always ask the gun which is the best ammo. then do a light cleaning to the bore.
I get a hold of every ammo and shoot about 20 rounds then shoot my accuracy test targets.
Do a light cleaning and shoot another 20 of the next ammo then after 20 rounds go for accuracy targets.
I do the same routine with each new ammo tested.
My thought is to remove the lube in the bore from the last test bullet shot and then the rifle needs about 20 rounds to recondition the bore to the new ammo lube.
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  #27  
Old 08-26-2018, 08:01 AM
Rick H.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK111 View Post
I always ask the gun which is the best ammo. then do a light cleaning to the bore.
I get a hold of every ammo and shoot about 20 rounds then shoot my accuracy test targets.
Do a light cleaning and shoot another 20 of the next ammo then after 20 rounds go for accuracy targets.
I do the same routine with each new ammo tested.
My thought is to remove the lube in the bore from the last test bullet shot and then the rifle needs about 20 rounds to recondition the bore to the new ammo lube.

Is this pretty much the "accepted" method of testing .22 ammunition in a target rifle? Just wondering because I will have to change my ways if it is and see what results I get.


Rick H.
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  #28  
Old 08-26-2018, 09:06 AM
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Ime that is a pretty sound method and far better than just switching ammo or even switching and shooting 10, etc., of the new as ‘foulers’ before going for group.
One chap I know lightly cleans the bore and shoots a whole box of 50 to season in.
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  #29  
Old 08-26-2018, 09:44 AM
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Seasoning the barrel for groups / targets is a fact we have to live with. Even new target barrels / rifles usually need about 5 to 10 rounds before performing well. Older rifles may need a lot more. From a dollar view, if it takes 50 rounds to season your barrel, and you shoot once a week, in a year or two you could have installed a new target barrel, and possibly saved money. From a collectors view, you have seriously damaged the value of the rifle. From what little I have learned from USBR, the more ammo it takes to season your barrel, the shorter the "window of accuracy", generally speaking. I may be right, I may be wrong. Even the best scientist sometimes draw the wrong conclusion. Am I right or wrong? ......... AH

Last edited by ammohog; 08-26-2018 at 09:51 AM.
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  #30  
Old 08-26-2018, 11:38 AM
Rick H.
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I guess the only reason I asked is because there are so many different ways of targeting a barrel/ammunition, based on what people say. In the past I have NOT cleaned the barrel in between testing different ammunition, but I have shot 10 rounds of the next ammunition thru the barrel before doing the actual test. Once I get up to about 75 rounds thru the barrel I will put a dry patch thru it just to clean out excess fowling. Not very scientific or labor intensive either I guess, but I may try something new.


Rick H.
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