Working up a new load - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-11-2004, 12:16 AM
Alaska Mike's Avatar
Alaska Mike
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
new mexico
Posts: 
2,945
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Working up a new load



Log in to see fewer ads
When working up a load for a new rifle in what order do you try stuff? Lot's of different ways to go, just would like to get some opinions.
__________________
POA = POI = Happy Boy!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-11-2004, 01:12 AM
jls

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Posts: 
164
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Mike

Here's a pretty good method, similar to what I do with minor differences:

http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/loaddevel.html

I highly recommend doing all your loading at the range if possible. HTH & good luck,

jerry
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-11-2004, 09:24 PM
Klof Drahcir

Join Date: 
Mar 2003
Posts: 
400
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Affleck's method

probably works great. I just insist on having at least a three shot group for EVERY change in variables.

Definitely choose a quality bullet first -- one designed to do what you want done. I have had great experiences with various Sierra bullets (very high quality at a reasonable price). Experimented with Remington and Speer bullets at about the same price, but they were so obviously inferior to the Sierras (at least in my 30-06) that I quickly gave up on them. There are many bullets out there with a well-earned reputation for accuracy and terminal performance.

Then choose a powder. I know that many do not appreciate Lee products, but their reloading manual lists powders in decreasing order of max muzzle velocity for each bullet weight. That puts the most efficient powders at or near the top of their list for each bullet type/weight. I choose one of the top three or four. I then consult at least two more reloading sources for data on that powder/bullet combination.

Use only cases of the same manufacture that have been loaded the same number of times. Trim and chamfer all cases.

Primers can make a significant difference in accuracy. I start with CCI, but just pick one and stick with it for a while.

I like to start with the bullet .005 off the lands, if possible.

Use the starting load and crank out five carefully measured rounds. Increase the powder charge equally to produce five rounds at each of five different charge wieghts, such that the final "batch" of five will be at max load. (Example: If the starting load is 61 grains and the max load 67, you will end up with five rounds at 61, five at 62.5, five at 64, five at 65.5, and five at 67 grains.) If you don't have a chronograph, or will be shooting over one for groups, you can get by with 3 rounds at each charge weight. I use five because the range I shoot at is not set up for me to shoot for groups over my chrony. I check for velocity with the first round of each set, and shoot four shot groups instead of three because five round sets are easy to organize and label in a 20 round ammo box. I shoot the groups at fifty yards to minimize variation due to wind.

Interestingly enough, I have found that groups generally get smaller as the charge increases, and the best groups tend to be one increment below max. Check for signs of excess pressure after every shot.

Once I have located the "sweet spot", it is time to repeat the process by loading equally varying charges in smaller increments bracketed around the charge that gave the best group.

I certainly do not claim to have found the "very best" loads for my rifle. You could spend the rest of your life changing variable after variable in search of that last tiny reduction in group size. So far, this process has led to consistent sub-MOA three shot groups for five different loads in my Savage 110 30-06. One of those loads shoots .5 MOA. Any more tweaking would be pointless for a hunting firearm. One of these days I'll no doubt run into a bullet/powder combo that doesn't satisfy through this method. When that happens I will change primers first. If that doesn't work, I'll change the powder.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 03-28-2004, 01:32 PM
Zircon's Avatar
Zircon
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Location: 
Arizona
Posts: 
518
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Well, the easiest variable to work with is powder charge weight.

I select the cases, primers, bullets, and a base powder that I'm going to use. First I vary charge weight, working up from about 15% below the referenced max charge weight. I try and cross-reference at least a couple of manuals for charge weights. I'll do this with the ogive of the bullet seated about 0.050" off the lands.

Once I find a charge weight that the gun likes, I'll start varying the bullet jump. So long as I don't have a maximum charge, I'll seat the bullet lightly in the lands, and then work back in 0.015" increments. If your charge weight is maxed out, then don't seat the bullet in the lands as you can get a dangerous pressure spike.

I may repeat this for a different bullet, or for different powders. I almost never screw around with different primers.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-28-2004, 02:54 PM
Alaska Mike's Avatar
Alaska Mike
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
new mexico
Posts: 
2,945
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I am just about ready to head out to the range this week. Just need to pick up a harrell powder thrower.

I have a savage 223 bolt and am starting out with the powder under the max. I am going to try varying the bullet seating depth first, then fine tune with the powder.

I have measured my OGOAL with a stoney point gauge. I was going to start at .010 off the lands and work my way in. What do you think would be the max for going past the OGOAL? I measured it where it was just barely touching it. From my research most 22 calibers like being into the lands some. I just don't want to force it to much as I would like to be able to pull a loaded round without pulling the bullet. I am shooting for .025 for neck tension. I will be neck sizing with a redding bushing.

Any ideas or suggestions would be very welcome. This will be my first time loading at the range and my first for trying for some precision reloading.
__________________
POA = POI = Happy Boy!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-06-2004, 11:33 PM
Zircon's Avatar
Zircon
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Location: 
Arizona
Posts: 
518
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Mike
I was going to start I am shooting for .025 for neck tension.
Ya sure you aren't missing a zero for neck tension = 0.0025"?

If you work your bullet on into the lands from 0.010" out, just don't do it with a max load. I'd start at 0.010", go to 0.005", go to 0.000", and then maybe a couple of thousandth's negative (into the lands.) As you indicate, the pits is when you stick the bullet, retract the slide, and dump the powder contents into your trigger mechanism.

I think you're on the right track with the parameters you suggest. Keep scrupulous notes, and pray for no wind!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-07-2004, 02:40 AM
Alaska Mike's Avatar
Alaska Mike
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
new mexico
Posts: 
2,945
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Yep, you're right. I did skip a zero.

I made it out once so far and keeping everything the same, a medium load of powder, and varying just the bullet seating, it seems to like being seated into the lands. Will try again tomorrow if I can get some weather. Wanted to go today but way to windy.
__________________
POA = POI = Happy Boy!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-07-2004, 09:14 AM
clint

Join Date: 
May 2003
Posts: 
2,636
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zircon

If you work your bullet on into the lands from 0.010" out, just don't do it with a max load. I'd start at 0.010", go to 0.005", go to 0.000", and then maybe a couple of thousandth's negative (into the lands.)
I agree, the way I do it is pick about 5 (or whatever I have around)bullets and two powders, then throw a medium weight load for each seated .015 or so off the lands. Most times the gun will show results more from a bullet change than anything.

After I find out which bullet my gun likes I then seat a bullet into the lands, measure the width of one land mark on the bullet and seat bullets that far into the lands. This does away with a lot of working up loads, you will see grouping changes with powder changes but not near as dramatic if you were say .015 off the lands. The bullet seated in the lands really helps take away some variables that will show up on paper, a few things to keep in mind. Pressure will show fast with bullets seated like this, it's worthless for hunting, and you need to start at start load data, maybe a bit below. I have never run in to any problems using this method, and I only use it for target work.

Clint
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-07-2004, 03:07 PM
jls

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Posts: 
164
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Pick a bullet, get the overall length - it doesn't hurt to "jam" it some on the initial firing, your cases will fireform better. Afterwards, I would suggest setting the seating depth as clint does.

Pick your powder(s), use a mid-range load to start, and work up from there. When you find the best powder & charge, then I would start varying the seating depth, but only .005" at a time. Anything more and you may miss that "magical" OAL. When you find a seating depth that looks good, you can vary it more, but only in .002" increments this time, up & down. Then go back and fine tune the powder charge, up or down, until you find that sweet spot.

Any change in bullet or powder, etc. necessitates going through the process again.

Don't know if you have any, but I got some really good results with XMR2015 and Berger 55 gr MEFs - excellent accuracy, over 3300 fps, and an ES under 10 consistently. Other powders that I've found to be good are VV N133 & N135, H322 is good but dirty.

Good luck & good shootin'!!

jerry
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-07-2004, 10:25 PM
Zircon's Avatar
Zircon
NRA Member - Click Here To Join! GOA Member

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Location: 
Arizona
Posts: 
518
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Mike
it seems to like being seated into the lands.
Small bore centerfires (.22 and 6mm) seem to like seating into the lands. Not surprising.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-07-2004, 11:11 PM
amax155's Avatar
amax155

Join Date: 
Mar 2002
Location: 
Ellisville, Mississippi
Posts: 
218
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I know that on my 30-06 my loads have 2 sweet spots at .012 and at .030. I mainly work up loads with my chrony and after I get to the speed that I am looking for, I start shooting for groups. I do my reloading out in my little shed, so I just load and step out the door and shoot for my speed. I will also play around with seating depth at this time also. I have found that it doesn't matter about differing bullets when it comes to seating depth. I seat match bullets to the same distance as my hunting bullets.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-09-2004, 03:38 AM
Alaska Mike's Avatar
Alaska Mike
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
new mexico
Posts: 
2,945
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
After a couple of days of reloading and testing at the range the gun seems to like .005" into the lands the best. It has a 1 in 9 twist so I thought the heavier bullet, 55 grain, would work out. But the 50 grain seems to have a slight edge. Plus with the 55 grain I can get just under 3500fps out of it with no pressure indications.

I sure do like being able to reload at the range. It really makes things easy to test and try out.

I have been having so much fun I have been neglecting my rimfires. Will have to get back to them next week!!

Thanks for all the help. I have narrowed it down to 50 and 55 grains, .005" into the lands, a slight edge with the 50 grain. Next I will try two different powders, H3895 and Varget. I have been using H3895 for the bullet testing. I have shot some great groups with it. I am heading out of town for a couple of days and will be measuring all my groups. Even with all the varying bullets and depths I got 20 out of 27 5 shot groups that a quarter covers the holes @100yds in slight winds the first day out. So the gun is showing promise. My goal is to be consistent 1/2 moa. Which might be pushing it for a factory gun but I think I might get there. Time will tell.
__________________
POA = POI = Happy Boy!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-09-2004, 02:45 PM
clint

Join Date: 
May 2003
Posts: 
2,636
TPC Rating: 
100% (8)
Just a quick note here, I don't what what kind of neck tension you ended up with and if all your doing is shooting at paper then no problems. BUT you may run into some loading .005" into the lands with not enough neck tension if you went to extract a loaded round and the bullet stuck in the lands enough, well powder goes everywhere, and makes for a very bad mess.

For hunting I would back off the lands at leats .005". I stated above that I find my best groups come from loading into the lands, I think this does away with start pressure variables along with some bullet to bore and who knows what else variables, but .25" is not much when hunting most game.

Just a thought, looks like you are doing a great job
Clint
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-09-2004, 04:28 PM
RonSC's Avatar
RonSC
US Air Force Disabled American Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Oct 2003
Location: 
Piedmont area of SC
Posts: 
1,560
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I tend to agree w/ Clint's asessment w/ reguard to seating depth where bullets are seated "under" .015" from rifling. These tolerences are encroaching on limits where pressure can be problem, especially whre hotter loads are concerned. The Temp difference @ time of reloading and firing can also vary in results when considering coefficient of thermal expansion though this can be more of a prob in "paper" shooting. as opposed to hunting.

Many (myself included) do much of their re-loading/ shooting during off season ie; warm summer months. Often using thes same loads on a Jan deer hunt @ 15 deg. can produce drastically different results ie; POI, velocity and pressure differentials. The reverse scenerio is usually a bigger concern ie; similar OAL loads worked up in winter months and fired during in Hot weather.

I know I may be preaching to the choir, but I thought it may be helpful to those 'new' to reloading.

Good shooting,
RonSC
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-23-2004, 12:57 AM
Alaska Mike's Avatar
Alaska Mike
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2002
Location: 
new mexico
Posts: 
2,945
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Just as a follow up to let you guys hear about some results. I got in a couple of long days at the range. I shot 38 groups of 5 rounds each. During the course of the shooting I varied first the bullet seating depth keeping the powder weight the same. The gun seems to like .010 into the lands. Then using the overall ogive overall length, measured with a stoney point, I tried vmax and nosler both in 50 and 55 grain bullets. The savage has a 1 in 9 twist so I thought the 55 grain would work out the best. But the 50 grain in both the vmax and nosler seem to shoot the best. Also I found out that the vmax will shoot a higher velocity than the nosler in both bullet weights with everything else being equal. Plus, the vmax ogive is farther out on the bullet so when seated to the same ogive depth as the nosler the overall length is shorter. I can easily load them in the mag even when they are .020 into the lands where I couldn't with the nosler bullet. One other thing is that the vmax will group tighter than nosler with my barrel when everything else is kept the same.

Now I need to find out at what velocity the vmax will shoot the best.

I am very happy with the gun so far. It is a savage 12vss, I had a local shop install a custom muzzle brake and recrown. As I said earlier in two days I shot 38 groups of 5 and altogether they averaged .583" @100yds. Which makes me very happy as I was constantly changing bullet depth, different weights and brands of bullets and some changes in powder amounts. The brass was new winchester that had not been fireformed. Plus, I am not that good of a benchrest shooter. I think that once I can tune to a velocity I will be able to make my goal of .5 @100yds. If I can do this with a factory rifle I am going to be one happy camper.

Anyway I just thought I would give a little feedback and sure do appreciate all the help and info you gave.
__________________
POA = POI = Happy Boy!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x