Belgian Browning handgun 22 mags / alternates....Compared...Chapter 1. - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-08-2011, 07:08 PM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Belgian Browning handgun 22 mags / alternates....Compared...Chapter 1.



Log in to see fewer ads
Folks:

Most us us with Belgian Browning 22 handguns (Nomad - Challenger - Medalist, etc), know that the original mags are hard to find and $$ spendy when we do find them. Upwards of $150.

Some people on this board ( Chim, M2HB...) have followed this closely and have modified late production Colt Cadet mags. Mostly involve grinding down ( height dimension "from" the mag body...sideways dimension as installed) the hold-down button slightly.

Then there'e the issue of specifically made aftermarket TripleK's....the earlier versions had smaller hold-down buttons that did not reliably activate the last shot hold-open device. Latest versions have a larger button and are reported to work.

Anyway...I have 2 of the original Browning mags....and bought 2, latest version TripleK's, 1 Colt Cadet and 1 Beretta U22 Neos mag. Plus I had 1 old-build Colt Woodsman that looks identical to the Cadet.

I took pics and micrometer measured the lot and will now report findings.

( Continued next post)----->
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-08-2011, 07:27 PM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Here are 7 photos from my Photobucket that I wish to share here, and hopefully will add dupes as pics to this thread later-->

http://s1130.photobucket.com/albums/...er_media_share LATER EDIT...Photobucket blocked the view of these pics and the photos repeat in the next response down.

My micrometer "skills" can stand improvement, and it might be best to take the quoted measurements as + 0 / -.003", as the degree of "tightness" of the measurement can influence the results this much.

Here are the details:

Browning mag #1
mag body width... 0.358"
o'all width(measured from hold down button height to opposite side of mag)..0.498"
difference = hold down button height = ~0.14"

Browning mag#2
mag body width...0.358"
o'all width....... 0.499"
difference = button height = ~ 0.141"

Beretta Neos
mag body width... 0.367-0.369"
o'all width............... 0.553
difference = button height = ~ 0.185"

Colt Cadet
body width .... 0.367 -0.369"
o'all width.......... 0.515"
difference = button height = ~ 0.148"

Colt Woodsman
body width..... 0.373"
o'all width..... 0.513" ( hard to measure 0.511-0.514)
difference = button height = ~ 0.14"

TripleK #1
body width.... 0.350-0.351+"
o'all width...... 0.479"
difference = 0.128-0.129+"

TripleK #2
body width... 0.352 to 0.353"
o'all width.....0.482-0.483"
difference = ~ 0.130"

A few things are clear from this.
1.) Browning variation is very tightly controlled,as the 2 versions I have come from 2 time frames, one is polished blue and the other is matte blue. Both function perfectly in my low-mileage, pristine, 1974 Challenger.
2.) Colt Cadet mags need a NOMINAL 0.008" to 0.01" removed. Go slow and with smaller incremental cuts.
3.) The Neos button stands considerably higher than either the Browning OR Cadet mags ( can easily be seen by eye) and needs ABOUT 0.045-0.050" removed. Again....go slow and check by doing incremental cuts.
4.) By hand....the new TripleK's insert smoothly in my Challenger and when you pull the slide back....it stays open. A firing report will come later ( a later "chapter" in this series).

More later...as we discuss the individual pics..... see the pics text for details of interesting differences.

Hope this helps.....

Last edited by IPSC; 05-20-2018 at 03:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-08-2011, 10:24 PM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Colt Woodsman, Colt Cadet, Beretta Neos U22 mags


Woodsman stamped-steel/folded-over follower and tail-end riser/nub that limits rear-ward positioning of last round. Neos next with tall hold-down button, Cadet last. Notice Neos and Cadet followers, plastic, large air gap at rear, hump toward front with 45 degree "launch" profile. Far-forward, the follower shape drops down. Also this--> notice that the seemingly- identical Cadet and Neos mags are different in this detail--> upper portion of backside mag "box" slopes forward on Neos slightly...perhaps limiting rearward movement of last round, just like the raised "nub" does on the Woodsman follower?



toothpick points to "stop" /nub on Woodsman mag...which limits the rear-most postioning of the last round that rides the follower. "Tall" hold-down button of Neos ( middle unit) is clearly visible here compared to others.


Beretta Neos and Colt Cadet ( middle and right) have 1.) identical hump on follower and 2.) big air space at backside of follower. Top surface of follower does not touch backside of mag; leaving large air-gap. Far left mag (Woodsman) shows toothpick pointing to nub/riser on back-end of follower, limiting rearward movement of last round.


Baseplate of Beretta has hard-plastic bumper making it longer from below. It is removable, as are the baseplates of the others. The mag "body" of the Neos looks identical to Colt Cadet...leaving impression that Cadet or Woodsman baseplate can be used on Neos mag.


Length differences. Right-side view of all three. Cadet and Neos have "C" shape piece above follower button formed by the assembly of the sheet-metal mag box. Neos apparently uses this "C", as a mag hold/release area...as the more normal "slot" that is cut in the mag is not there ( slot-cut is still included in Cadet and Woodsman, just forward and slightly below hold-down button shaft).



Toothpick points to "C"-shaped catch formed from square extra metal, in lieu of catch cutout like Colt. Both Cadet and Neos have this "C"-shaped feature. Woodsman has catch "slot" only.

Last edited by IPSC; 05-20-2018 at 02:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 05-09-2011, 11:55 AM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
One aspect I'd like to pursue further...from members here who may be close to the design aspects....is to question the reason for the unusual "humped" followers on the modern Cadet and Neos mags. Any feedback on this?.....

Also, for people who have historical knowledge on the Colt Woodsman.... why the raised nub on the rear of the follower?. Seems like the gun should function properly without this...as the next-to-last ( and all other earlier) rounds can sit further back. This only stops the *last* bullet from riding far back on the follower. Why ?

LATER EDIT....seems to be there to limit rearward movement of the last round that rests in the follower. If the round moves too farback, the "rim" of the case may catch the backside/top of the follower, impeding forward motion. The standard Neos and Cadet mags do not have such a raised "nub"...and the air-gap behind the follower is big, causing fears that the rim catches the backside of the follower, and can't move forward. Indeed, that is the case when one tries to "thumb" this last round forward....but IN PRACTICE...while shooting...it is NOT a problem at all.

Last edited by IPSC; 02-02-2012 at 11:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-10-2011, 12:18 PM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Anyone ?......

LATER UPDATE EDIT.... found out that the humped follower on the Neos and Cadet mag ( when used in Belgian Browning Challenger)...causes these problems-->
- if you insert a full mag into a pistol with the slide locked back, and then flip the slide release lever, the top round won't feed reliably into the chamber ( FTF).
- when shooting, as round 9 picks up...so does round 10 and causes a double-feed jam.

Solution?....remove/file-down the forward "hump"on the follower. Now it looks like the OEM Browning factory mag and is ~100% reliable.

Last edited by IPSC; 02-01-2012 at 03:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-01-2012, 09:39 PM
Deaconblue's Avatar
Deaconblue
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2011
Location: 
Illinois
Posts: 
1,094
TPC Rating: 
100% (15)
IPSC
Your measurements pretty much match mine- no argument there. But get this I checked out my spanky new Cadet mags and the overall thickness at the follower button is... 0.570" And one is 0.572"! How do you like that? I might need a saw rather than the sander LOL!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-01-2012, 10:46 PM
M2HB's Avatar
M2HB
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2004
Location: 
Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 
28,747
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
I used to modify the humps but I found I could get just as good of reliability without the modification. Filling in the back if the mag with a lightweight filler would serve me better.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-02-2012, 12:05 AM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Thumbs up

The forward humps ( I found) consistently resulted in the first-round FTF when stripped from the freshly inserted mag...and consistently tried to pick up rounds 9 and 10 at the same time. Both Neos and Cadet mags acted this way, when used in the Belgian Browning Challenger.

Problem solved when the hump is gone.......follower is now just like a factory Browning mag...smooth on top

Last edited by IPSC; 02-02-2012 at 12:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-08-2018, 09:27 AM
landmancpl

Join Date: 
Apr 2018
Posts: 
4
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Thumbs down DID NOT WORK

Tried these mods on 2 Beretta MAGS... BOTH failed... bottom line: a waste of time and money. I spent $41 and now have two useless mags. I guess that is a cheap "learning experience" ... but a TOTAL NO GO from my point of view. Will now try the Triple K mags and will report on same. The difference between the original Challenger and modified NEOS is day and NIGHT. Challenger smooth as silk... NEOS...hit and miss but ALWAYS includes a miss....
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-08-2018, 10:02 AM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
I would recommend we discuss this on ONE thread. I answered you in that thread

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...1#post10757969

...... where I provided other, referenced threads ( where I referenced this one, for example). Using the referenced thread for further responses,causes the discussion to fan-out over these various places and is not collected in one place.

Suggest we keep talks in one area so it can be followed.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-08-2018, 12:37 PM
varmit hunter67's Avatar
varmit hunter67
US Army Veteran Law Enforcement Officer NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2008
Location: 
Lilburn, GA, near Stone Mtn.
Posts: 
4,328
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
I have 4 magazines that I consider as more or less original magazines for the M-N-C series. Three have magazine buttons that are 6.5 mm in diameter, and one whose button is 8.55 mm in diameter. Only the 8.55 mm button mag states "22 LR Browning" and it also has the narrower backside edge ridge widening out to a flat where the mag catch collects the bottom of the magazine. The 3 narrow button magazines have no caliber or Browning imprint at all on the bases, and so probably are not OEM original. They also have black plastic followers. The widths at the buttons are 12.55 (large button) and 12.6 mm.s (small button).

Only the 8.55 mm button mag has a metal follower. Iirc, this was the only magazine that was with the '63 Medalist when I bought it. The others I picked up sometime later, but I never kept any records on them. Each of those three have 4 spot welds along either side of the forward facing side of the magazine. No other markings.

The 8.55 diameter button has no spot welds. All mags have the 33 degree angle forward from vertical of the M_N_C series as I understand.

I also have 2 of the converted Colt .22LR magazines. They work quite well.

My C-II has a 20 degree magazine angle forward from vertical and the notched magazine catch base. I don't see how it would be possible to use a C-II or later magazine in the M-N-C line as I have seen reported. The grip angle is entirely different. The C-II mags and BM mags, both 20 degree angles, but the magazine catches are different and they are not compatible with each other.

VH
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-08-2018, 04:07 PM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
VH....there are some other discussion threads where this was brought up. I can't recall, but I think it was poster "Remnar" who clued us onto the use of later mags for the C1 (Belgian) Challenger.

Yep...I brought up the same concern at that time, that the steeper "Luger style" grip angle of the original Browning would suggest such a mag swap with the later guns wasn't possible. Turns out it is possible, but another odd issue appears when you use these mags.....there is no UPWARD STOP on these mags, based on the way they are built.... and the mag can be over-inserted too high. If I find the link, I'll post it here.

LATER EDIT..... here is the thread ( I think it was this one)....notice the remarks by Remnar and 92lowrider.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=429654

Here's another.... https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...ghlight=remnar

.

Last edited by IPSC; 04-08-2018 at 04:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-23-2018, 05:02 PM
varmit hunter67's Avatar
varmit hunter67
US Army Veteran Law Enforcement Officer NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Feb 2008
Location: 
Lilburn, GA, near Stone Mtn.
Posts: 
4,328
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSC View Post
VH....there are some other discussion threads where this was brought up. I can't recall, but I think it was poster "Remnar" who clued us onto the use of later mags for the C1 (Belgian) Challenger.

Yep...I brought up the same concern at that time, that the steeper "Luger style" grip angle of the original Browning would suggest such a mag swap with the later guns wasn't possible. Turns out it is possible, but another odd issue appears when you use these mags.....there is no UPWARD STOP on these mags, based on the way they are built.... and the mag can be over-inserted too high. If I find the link, I'll post it here.

.
IPSC:
I looked back at the 2 threads you referenced. I had some comments in them as well. "The C-II has the same mag. angle as the C-III/Buck Mark magazines. The M-N-C has the more acute angle. I did accidently force a C-II mag in my Medalist the other day (got my mags mixed up). It was very difficult to slide in - obviously- and the slide lock did not work, and I found if I pushed up on the bottom of the magazine, I could get the rounds to feed and the extra 1/32" would lock the slide. And it was a PITB to get the mag out! So I am of the opinion that a C-II mag should never be used in anything but a C-II. I have 3 good mag.s for the C-II so I see no need to try to take a wider base BM mag and fiddle with it trying to get it to fit. I don't know that I have ever seen an actual C-III magazine.

I did solve my magazine spontaneous ejection from my C-II. I got a replacement mag catch [2 in fact], and used some heat glue arrow nock glue to hold the spring in the hole in the mag catch until I could get it in place and replace the pin. It is astounding to see how a few thousandths of an in. will make such a difference. But my C-II runs like a sewing machine again. The TexasBrowningGuy [Gary Chatham] does not have a very good selection of parts anymore. I bought an extra barrel from him a few years ago and 2 slides. I may have one of the barrels D&T'd for a red dot like Chim did. I only need a couple parts to assemble a complete second slide. If I ever see a C-II frame I might try to buy it. Jack First has decent parts, but sometimes need some fitting. I bought a C-II firing pin from him and it took quite a bit of sanding to reduce the diameter of the pin to fit the C-II pin in the slide FP channel. I may have used Jack First for a replacement FP for my Medalist as well. The C-II has a domed FP head like a ball peen hammer; the Medalist the more standard chisel-type. Many of the parts available, mix and match, between the M-N-C, the C-II and the BM are interchangeable, or very similar and a little tinkering will make them work like OEM parts. Ask me how I know.

I seldom use my modified colt mags in the Medalist anymore, but I have them on hand should I need to get in a gun fight and hold out for awhile.

VH
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-20-2018, 03:03 PM
IPSC

Join Date: 
Apr 2011
Location: 
Galivants Ferry, SC
Posts: 
1,578
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
FYI.... for folks following this thread and who couldn't see the original photos posted in the early part of this thread...I have found the missing images and have re-inserted them using Imgur as the photo hosting source....instead of Photobucket who created the "blockage" problem in the first place.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 AM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x