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  #1  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:47 AM
VertFish
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CUB or NO CUB??????



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Ok students, Fall classes at Kimber Kollege have commenced and our first quizz involves the little known Kimber CUB. Is the gun below a real Kimber CUB in your opinion:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...contact_sent=1
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  #2  
Old 08-20-2019, 12:09 PM
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In my opinion it needs further study and evaluation as there are some things that just aren't right about it. It should have a late "A" action with long tang and straight bolt handle, but it has the second incarnation of the rounded early tang and the dished handle. The barrel just looks too heavy, possibly because it's a cut down standard barrel. The rosewood tip doesn't look like it's fitted right and the wood in the stock is really highly figured as opposed to what should be very plain wood.
I'd lean to it being a pre Cub special order gun.
A bit of provenance would be most helpful.
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:57 PM
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Serial Number

I continue to learn how vast my lack of Kimber Knowledge really is, but I will hazard a guess that this was originally a custom factory build made for a customer with initials RB or possibly a son/grandson with these initials, hence the serial number "RB2" I also guess that the stock may have been altered later to add the tip. As for the issue being a "CUB" my guess is that the dealer may have groped to classify this rifle and opted for rarer choice in an attempt to maximize the value.
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Old 08-20-2019, 01:27 PM
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I tend to agree with the expert advice given above. The wood is too nice to be a Cub, and the fore-end tip wood does not look to be Kimber quality. Either a special order or an after-market re-do. Possibly Tom at Blue Ridge Outfitters could shed some light...was it special ordered by them? Maybe a special for Ron Shirk?

Last edited by joet333; 08-20-2019 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:21 PM
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SOLD
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  #6  
Old 08-20-2019, 04:45 PM
VertFish
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You guys did pretty good!!! While the Dennis Smith "Never Say Never" Product Warning is still your guide, there are several things wrong with this gun being a standard issue CUB. Let's review shall we:

A Kimber Dealer Newsletter dated July 18, 1985 announced that:

"For Christmas last year, we produced a small batch of scaled down Kimber Model 82's for the kids of some Kimber people.Each rifle was serialized with the name and age fo the recipient. The Kimber Cubs turned out to be cute little rifles and as you can imagine, they were very well received by their new owners. In August and September, we are going to run another small batch of "Cubs" and this time offer them to our Master Dealers only. The "Cub" is based upon a standard Model 82 .22LR action but has the following special features:
* 18" barrel versus the standard 22" barrel
* 13" LOP instead of the standard 13 1/2" LOP
* Standard straight grained American walnut stock without grip cap and checkering. The cost of the stock has been minimized because in many cases it will be replaced in later years by a full-sized Model 82 stock
* Scalloped step in front of the trigger guard on the underside of the forearm (like a SuperAmerica) It was necessary to add this feature to keep the shorter forearm well proportioned
* optional 18 LPI checkering for an extra $40.00 (Item #1219)"

Note: The standard Cub was item #1218.

Let's start with Sage who says:

In my opinion it needs further study and evaluation as there are some things that just aren't right about it. It should have a late "A" action with long tang and straight bolt handle, but it has the second incarnation of the rounded early tang and the dished handle. The barrel just looks too heavy, possibly because it's a cut down standard barrel. The rosewood tip doesn't look like it's fitted right and the wood in the stock is really highly figured as opposed to what should be very plain wood.
I'd lean to it being a pre Cub special order gun.


Pretty Good Sage. It does appear to have the incorrect tang. The early round tang seen in the ad was modified September 10, 1982 and was again modified on December 7, 1983.

The bolt also appears incorrect for the December 1984 introduction dated. The later 82-A action with the round bolt knob was introduced on February 7 , 1983.

The barrel does look to heavy from the Cubs I have seen and does appear to have been chopped down.

No Rosewood or Ebony tip was ever an option on a Cub; which was intended to be an inexpensive kid's gun. And you are right, the wood on the subject gun is not a straight-grained American black walnut.

As opposed to a Pre-Cub Special Order gun, my guess is that it is a post-shipment workshop gun.

Kook says:

I continue to learn how vast my lack of Kimber Knowledge really is, but I will hazard a guess that this was originally a custom factory build made for a customer with initials RB or possibly a son/grandson with these initials, hence the serial number "RB2" I also guess that the stock may have been altered later to add the tip. As for the issue being a "CUB" my guess is that the dealer may have groped to classify this rifle and opted for rarer choice in an attempt to maximize the value.

The initials are a bit of a mystery. A standard 82 could be ordered with a special serial number. All of the Cubs I have seen were roll-marked CUB and then contained the other serial number info.

Other clues you missed:
The subject rifle has a grip cap;
The stock does not have a trigger guard scallop
The gun has sling studs. The Eaton Guide picture of a Cub shows no sling studs.

You guys get a B+ for your efforts.

Last edited by VertFish; 08-23-2019 at 07:44 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  #7  
Old 08-20-2019, 06:30 PM
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"Post-shipment workshop gun," is that like a lunchbox special?
I hope that if the new owner is a reader here, that he pulls the metal out of the wood and looks to see what, if anything is written in the barrel channel and shares it.
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SageRat22 View Post
"Post-shipment workshop gun," is that like a lunchbox special?
I hope that if the new owner is a reader here, that he pulls the metal out of the wood and looks to see what, if anything is written in the barrel channel and shares it.
Lunchbox Gun: One fabricated from factory pieces snuck home in a lunchbox for final assembly. Reference Johnny Cash, One Piece at Time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9F2DT8iEQ

Back Door Gun: One fabricated entirely at the factory and then snuck out the back door.

Post-Shipment Workshop Gun: A gun that was once a factory original gun when shipped, but has been modified by its owner in an attempt to "create" what should have been purchased in the first place OR is intended to be sold in a fraudulent manner to a sucker.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:25 PM
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In defense of the seller/previous owner, unless you had a pretty sophisticated knowledge of KoO rifles and their nuances, I think someone could reasonably assume that the gun was an upgraded Cub. With that said, factory made odd ball and special order pieces do exist, I have several, and they still command a pretty healthy price. I think it would be an interesting rifle to look at and evaluate in person.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:56 AM
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Seems as though we have decided it is not an actual Cub. I lean towards the idea that it is a special order gun. And most likely prior to the actual Cubs production time frame? If it was made up to deceive the person that could do work of this quality could certainly have stamped it as a Cub instead of RB2? Where did the idea for the Cubs begin? Maybe after a few orders for kid size rifles?
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUSHKABOOM View Post
Seems as though we have decided it is not an actual Cub. I lean towards the idea that it is a special order gun. And most likely prior to the actual Cubs production time frame? If it was made up to deceive the person that could do work of this quality could certainly have stamped it as a Cub instead of RB2? Where did the idea for the Cubs begin? Maybe after a few orders for kid size rifles?
The Kimber Dealer newsletter is unclear if "some Kimber people" meant Kimber employees or customers who were Kimber fans. The first Cub was for Greg's son, Nick, and was given to him when he was 10. It's serial number was NICK 10. My guess is a few other Kimber employees had them made for their kids and Greg thought there might be a market outside the Kimber factory. In reality, it does not appear that many Cubs were sold. They seldomly come up for public auction. My suspicion is that there are less than 100 of them.

The history of how the subject gun came into being will most likely remain a mystery, just like so much other Kimber lore. Regardless of its authenticity/collectibility, the gun still holds some value as a pretty shooter. Who knows what the gun sold for, but If the gun had a BIN of $1,200, I could see buying it. On the other hand, it would be hard for me to justify spending $1,500 on it. Opinions on value for guns like this run the gammit. I've certainly "overspent" on guns that I just really liked and really wanted. To quote collector Robert Moseley " I'm not paying too much, I'm just buying early".
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:06 AM
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I share the thought that it’s likely a special order, pre Cub rifle. Also, my interpretation of the manual is that if it was serial numbered with a kid’s name, initials or something non standard, then it wasn’t stamped with “Cub.” If it was ordered without a special number, then it came stamped “Cub” and numbered. With all of that said, they almost appear to be a special order piece in the first place, given their scarcity and the differences in the few encountered.
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:59 PM
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Since KoO business practices tended toward the chaotic, it's easy to understand why anyone offering opinions here might be tentative, but I hate to think that is the norm. We're not wusses after all. (Especially we Oregonians!) Let's be bold and risk it!

The rifle in question here is mislabeled and really not a CUB
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:23 AM
VertFish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberkook View Post
Since KoO business practices tended toward the chaotic, it's easy to understand why anyone offering opinions here might be tentative, but I hate to think that is the norm. We're not wusses after all. (Especially we Oregonians!) Let's be bold and risk it!

The rifle in question here is mislabeled and really not a CUB
But then again, there is that one guy who is the founder of the Greater Medford Area Eternal Optimist Club who dances with cows:

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...light=Sagerats
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberkook View Post
Since KoO business practices tended toward the chaotic, it's easy to understand why anyone offering opinions here might be tentative, but I hate to think that is the norm. We're not wusses after all. (Especially we Oregonians!) Let's be bold and risk it!

The rifle in question here is mislabeled and really not a CUB
OK...I'll go with Kook's suggestion and take a risk.
I scaled some dimensions from the computer screen ( using the Leupold 3-9x33 VXll as a reference) and compared them to one of my KoO 82A Custom Classics.
As measured from the screen (some error is likely);
Barrel Length = 17.93"
LOP = 13.75"
Front checkering tip to fore-end seam = .78" (should be 1.875")
Fore-end tip length = 1.46" (should be 2.0625")
Checkering tip to stud center = .25" (should be .625")
Stud center to fore-end seam = .50" (should be 1.1875")

So...I'll say that the subject rifle is either a "Post-Shipment Workshop Gun" or home workshop re-do.
Kimber stocks have been available on Ebay and Gunbroker (although that is a nice stock).
The stock dimensions do not seem right for a Cub. The barrel may have been shortened (it would be nice to see the crown). The bottom metal is not perfectly fitted to the inletting. The tip length and dimensions are all wrong and probably added after factory. The front sling stud looks to be in the wrong location.

Comments??

Last edited by joet333; 08-25-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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