22 Plinkster tried to be positive about the Summit. - Page 2 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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  #16  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:39 PM
Stripekiller
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Nice RIGG!
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:25 PM
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There is a stainless steel option now.
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  #18  
Old 06-25-2019, 03:45 AM
Treefeller22
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Interesting little post from a guy here in Australia on the PWS T3’s

PWS T3s
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Post Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:05 pm

Many of you have either come across or have heard of the PWS T3s, Summits etc. You would have also heard mixed views regarding accuracy, ejection etc.
Many of you would also know i have screwed around with rimfires for BR50 and HunterClass etc and some would have seen the dual pin front locking WEC rifle i built over 20 years ago. Never in all my years of beating my head with a house brick have i come across a more frustrating rifle than the PWS T3. I have become extremely lazy since i bought the T1x and expect every rimfire on the market to shoot like it.

Let me help those of you that have a T3 now that i have dragged one of mine out of the reject safe.

Extraction issues. Simple fix any smith can help you with so i won't waste time.

Ejection. As above.

Accuracy issues. This is the number one real issue with these rifles. The carbon tension tube needs to be dumped and replaced with an alloy one. The reason is because of resonance. Something i have gone into great detail with stretcher tubes over many years where titanium and carbon fibre should never be used because of the inconsistent way they deal with resonance. It is for very good reason that state of the art carbon fibre BR stocks have both or either balsa or cedar to deal with the issue, or in the case of long range BR, use laminate stocks. I will add that while i strongly advocate the benefits of stretcher tubes (aluminium only) on a centerfire rifle, they absolutely categorically without any exception i have ever seen, do not work on a rimfire. As such the only thing they do on the T3 is look cool. Fashion over function at work again.

Headspace. This is confusing if you go to youtube etc in search of cures to misfires and poor grouping. If the bolt face touches the barrel tenon when locked up, this is the death knell for accuracy and POI shift as temp varies. You do not ever want the shock wave of a hammer or firing pin (both in a T3) strike travelling up and down the barrel, especially in something as pedestrian as a 22 lr. The best way to do this is to jam the bolt face into the tenon. Instant death.
Now this is where it gets hairy but is most important. The correct cartridge rim headspace for a 22 lr should be around 42 thou. The problem is that the bolt face to where the cartridge case recess is exceeds this in every T3 i have measured. To fix this the bolt face has to be machined to give around 30 thou rim recess depth. The remaining 12 thou is set by the barrel tenon depth, either by shimming or machining the shoulder.
When all this is done the toggle and bolt closed on an empty chamber should cycle tension free, preventing the known toggle link arms and pivot bearing failure. Ideally a chambered cartridge should just have the tiniest amount of feel. If you cannot cycle the action with the forefinger alone, you have an issue of the bolt face, extractor or ejector jamming into the tennon. One or all has to be alleviated. This should fix 90% of T3 accuracy issues, but not all.
The chamber. I have looked at a number of T3s with a bore scope. The one that shot well had a neat throat, not great, just OK for a factory jobbie. The others looked like the reamer was blunt or was used dry as the leade had flatted lands with an overhanging burr on the trailing side. This causes a land to cut a wide groove on the bullet that allows gas blow by leading to erratic velocity thus vertical spread. Also as gas vents unevenly at the bullets base at the muzzle, it causes bullet dispersion. Combine both issues and two, three or four inch groups at fifty yards are the norm and many owners of these rifles say as much. The only fix, generally, is another barrel because the unique method of barrel clamping, same as Ruger 10/22s, means you cannot set back the chamber.
Those that are rebarrelled still need the other stuff fixed or it's status quo. I do have a couple of very long half degree forcing cone type reamers to try and clean these throats up, but whatever reamer was used at the factory is very short of being a match chamber and is not that successful.

I have heard some rather bad comments about the triggers. I have no idea what the standard trigger is on the range of these rifles, but on my own i have found it to be adjustable from 4 ounce to a few pounds without creep or too much over travel. They are in my view the best from factory trigger i have played with”

Kind of makes sense when you look at it that way.
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  #19  
Old 06-25-2019, 07:17 AM
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Treefeller, very interesting comments on the headspace issue. My bolt face has the rim recessed at .043 and shoots right in there with my other hm2 rifles. I have a few 22lr barrel blanks and used barrels sitting and keep thinking about trying one of these in my Summit, I may do this and see what the accuracy is. Next step may be go towards milling the bolt face and trying what you discuss here as it makes perfect sense. I would assume the firing pin would also need to be shortened the same amount to eliminate the contact with the barrel. This is the same way I do my other barrels, that is on the Remington 581's I build. They have no recess in the bolt face and so there is no issue with contacting the barrel tenon if set up properly.

I also like to glue my barrels in, have you done that on an aluminium receiver and is it reversible?
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  #20  
Old 06-25-2019, 07:41 PM
Treefeller22
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I’ve not tried to glue one in. At the moment on the VQ I’ve got about .04mm gap, bolt to barrel with 4 shims in. If I add another shim it will be .09mm which might be on the excessive side. I’m wondering if the duel extractors contacting the barrel will have much of an impact as that’s the cause of the only resistance I can feel on lock up. Also see the bolt move sideways when the 1st extractor contacts the barrel. Think I just need to shoot it a bit more and try work it out. My Anschutz 64MPR has spoiled me I think.
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  #21  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:59 AM
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Everybody wants to be a star....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFournier View Post
But it was easy to see he was disappointed in its performance. There was no hiding the poor groups it produced despite the Federal Ultramatch, which I have found to be excellent ammo, he was using. For the price the performance was very poor I feel.

https://youtu.be/3k1Rx0aHVOE
I've tried sitting through his videos before. He shows himself more than the topic.

That video could have been done in three minutes instead of twelve minutes. I had to fast-forward and skip through it to get to the meaningful parts.

I prefer the videos where the narrator doesn't need to fill the video with himself...Tom
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:22 AM
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I had my mind set on the Summit in 17M2 when it was first introduced. After doing a little more research I decided to pass. The toggle system is a great and easy way to cycle the rounds. What changed my mind is all the pivot points that’s pinned. I could be totally wrong but these areas are going to wear from usage. That would change the head space tolerance and require re-shimming the barrel. For the amount of money I’m going to wait until some long term results come in before re-considering.
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  #23  
Old 07-07-2019, 06:02 PM
Treefeller22
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Well the VQ is shooting a lot better each time I take it out. Trigger was sh1t1ng me but VQ sent me a new hammer and sear which when instmade the trigger feel like it was made of marshmallows. I stoned the original trigger and sear a little on the contact points and now it’s lost that creep....... awesome. Still a little heavy for target work but I’ve got no issues shooting MOA @200m (well ducks heads..... lol). The PWS I’ve also got has issues though. Had the linkage replaced after braking. Now I’ve got growing head space/ barrel to bolt space. Last time I measured it it was 0.135mm now after a about 80rds it’s 0.440mm and getting lots of failures to fire.
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