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Old 12-10-2016, 10:45 AM
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CZ 452 Trainer free float



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Hi guys,

About 8 years ago I bought a 452 trainer & due to life changes never even shot the thing. Times are different, I took it to the woods in Colorado and sighted it in. Suspected that the elevation was off so took it to the range yesterday to properly sight it in.

Shoots low. Like 6" low at 25 yards. Laser boresighted it at home and it looks like both low and to the right.

I think the rifle got banged up in the return flight. Don't get me started on the stupid Pelican rifle case.

I don't remember checking the trainer for free float when I got it. I did check my 455 American and it is fine, business card runs all the way up to the receiver.

Not the 452. Real thin paper stops well before it reaches the receiver.

I removed the action & put it back in. Hand snugged it (my FAT torque wrench screwdriver has never seemed to work properly). No joy, paper still hangs up despite trying a couple different torques.

Question 1: Is the 452 trainer supposed to free float?
Question 2: Considering that it was apparently banged around, what's the best course of action before getting some sanding paper out? Or is sanding the way to go?
Question 3: Is there a good reasonably priced alternative to the FAT wrench?

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Old 12-10-2016, 11:31 AM
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Well, the Trainer has a barrel screw about where your paper is stopping, perhaps a bit further back. Some folks bed the action and barrel to the lug, some bed just the action and lug, some remove the lug screw and just rely on the action screw and do indeed free-float the barrel. I suspect most are like me and do neither and don't worry about free floating the barrel.

I suggest you play around with action and barrel lug screw torque settings, from 12-25 in lbs. see what groups best with your rifle.
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:32 AM
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Is it .22lr

Assuming it's a .22lr, the 452 trainers, lux,fullstock,ultra lux, silhouette,style,varmint all have barrel lugs half way down the barrel. Which makes it impossible to slide a piece of paper of regardless of thickness between the barrel and forearm Of the rifle down to the receiver. In other words what you are expirence get is normal in a 452 trainer. As for shooting six inches low. Raise the rear tangent site and see if it adjusts your POI.
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:39 AM
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Before I remounted the action the paper would slide only a couple inches down so maybe that did the trick. I started at 25 yards on the 50 meter rear setting, was shooting a little low so I checked the setting. Moved it back to 25 and was aghast.

What I was hoping to do is get it set up for 25 yards and dial in any minor POI adjustments with the front sight.
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:47 AM
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You can try putting a shim under the barrel lug, or you can send the rifle to CZ and let them fix it. You didn't mention what ammo you're using, that could account for part of the discrepancy.

Last edited by motovita; 12-10-2016 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slugless View Post
Before I remounted the action the paper would slide only a couple inches down so maybe that did the trick. I started at 25 yards on the 50 meter rear setting, was shooting a little low so I checked the setting. Moved it back to 25 and was aghast.

What I was hoping to do is get it set up for 25 yards and dial in any minor POI adjustments with the front sight.
Where is your blade positioned on the fore-sight key-way? What size is the fore-sight blade?
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:00 PM
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Barrel/stock contact shouldn't be much a concern for that kind of poi shift... that said, the barrel may be floated to the barrel lug which is directly under the rear sight base - it's actually part of it.

With the rear sight set at 25 meters, you're POI is 6" low, correct?
Have you adjusted elevation using the front sight? If so, is it all the way forward (down)? If so, remove the front sight post and read the number stamped on the bottom. Four are available, #1 being the shortest and #4 being the tallest - you would want something shorter.

...Crestwalker beat me to it.

JMK
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JMK View Post
Barrel/stock contact shouldn't be much a concern for that kind of poi shift... that said, the barrel may be floated to the barrel lug which is directly under the rear sight base - it's actually part of it.

With the rear sight set at 25 meters, you're POI is 6" low, correct?
Have you adjusted elevation using the front sight? If so, is it all the way forward (down)? If so, remove the front sight post and read the number stamped on the bottom. Four are available, #1 being the shortest and #4 being the tallest - you would want something shorter.

...Crestwalker beat me to it.

JMK
I sighted it in kinda crudely up in Colorado and had to shift the rear sight pretty far to the right but it seemed to be shooting ok. I knew the elevation was off but it wasn't that bad. Y'alls comments about ammo type and sight height are good ones, but 6" low POI from POA is way too much for an essentially new rifle with about 100 rounds through it. I shot it in Colorado with mini mags and here in Houston with Aguila rifle match so there is the subsonic vs. supersonic thing going but 6" low at 25 yards?

The front sight is located at the factory height setting and the test target was centered but they had to move the rear sight to the right a lot, so sight elevation shouldn't be an issue if it was hitting true at the factory.

I do think the rifle got banged up in luggage handling. The Pelican system sucks if you ever want to travel with more than one type of rifle and the bolt got thrown around so much it decocked. I should have secured it better, lesson learned.

Ok, I remounted the action and now there's no binding at the front of the barrel. We shall see again in 2 weeks time.

How about the FAT wrench? On my 455 when I had the scope mounted theirs seemed to work perfectly but for mine the bit will slip out of the hex head before it starts clicking. Any better options?
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Slugless View Post
How about the FAT wrench? On my 455 when I had the scope mounted theirs seemed to work perfectly but for mine the bit will slip out of the hex head before it starts clicking. Any better options?
You either have the wrong bit in your Fatwrench or the wrench is broken. There are much better torque wrenches available, but a Fatwrench (which I use) is better than a screwdriver.
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:13 PM
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At 25 yards the difference in trajectory between standard and high velocity is negligible. There will always be differences from brand to brand and load to load, however.

I looked at the FAT Wrench, CDI Torque Products, and Capri Tools, among others. I went with Capri Tools and have been happy. It'll set you back about $120.
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:16 PM
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Also, you can't rely on the factory sight in. You have to set it up for your ammo, and more importantly, your eyes. Each person sees iron sights differently. The front sight is there for elevation adjustment - slide it forward (down) to raise your poi. If you run out, get a shorter post. CZ sells them for $9. Once you're sighted in, then use the tangent sight to adjust your range. Good little setup.
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Old 12-11-2016, 06:25 AM
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Fatwrench for the $$ is the best deal. Looked at other options all were more expensive. Amazon had the best price at about $50
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Old 12-11-2016, 11:29 AM
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All adjustable torque wrenches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud22 View Post
Fatwrench for the $$ is the best deal. Looked at other options all were more expensive. Amazon had the best price at about $50
I posted this on another discussion, but will repeat it here (perhaps they will make a Sticky of this):

ALL ADJUSTABLE, CLICK-SET TORQUE WRENCHES need to be relieved of spring tension AFTER EVERY USE. Keeping the spring under compression causes it to take a "set", and the torque settings will eventually lose their accuracy.

I have seen too many torque wrenches ruined because the springs were left at their last settings after use. This includes the cheapest HF to the high-end Snap-On wrenches.

My set of HF wrenches keep their accuracy quite well since my standard practice is to relieve the compression. I verify them periodically with beam and/or dial wrenches.

As for the CZ 452 LUX, Scout/Trainer with the barrel lug, I free-float the barrel all around the lug (yes, I used sandpaper and/or a barrel-channel tool), and use the lug to "tune" the barrel to the ammo. Fortunately, I have nearly 10k rounds of the same lot that shoot 0.01" to 0.10" groups at 50 yards, so once set, I just go out & shoot. The groups' pictures are on my other posts, as RFC only allows one posting of pictures.

I doubt that the Pelican case has anything to do with the shifted PoI, unless the packer placed the rifle in the case in a way that the sights were shifted. Just sayin' . . .
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  #14  
Old 12-11-2016, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slugless View Post
I sighted it in kinda crudely up in Colorado and had to shift the rear sight pretty far to the right but it seemed to be shooting ok. I knew the elevation was off but it wasn't that bad. Y'alls comments about ammo type and sight height are good ones, but 6" low POI from POA is way too much for an essentially new rifle with about 100 rounds through it. I shot it in Colorado with mini mags and here in Houston with Aguila rifle match so there is the subsonic vs. supersonic thing going but 6" low at 25 yards?

The front sight is located at the factory height setting and the test target was centered but they had to move the rear sight to the right a lot, so sight elevation shouldn't be an issue if it was hitting true at the factory.

I do think the rifle got banged up in luggage handling. The Pelican system sucks if you ever want to travel with more than one type of rifle and the bolt got thrown around so much it decocked. I should have secured it better, lesson learned.

Ok, I remounted the action and now there's no binding at the front of the barrel. We shall see again in 2 weeks time.

How about the FAT wrench? On my 455 when I had the scope mounted theirs seemed to work perfectly but for mine the bit will slip out of the hex head before it starts clicking. Any better options?
Another tip I discovered by trial & error is to use a TORX bit in a hex/Allen-head screw. Find one that fits best without slipping with light torque. Hex wrenches tend to round-out the heads, but the TORX "teeth" fit better into the corners, allowing better contact with the screw-head. I have yet to round-out a hex/Allen-head using this method. ALWAYS USE A TORQUE-INDICATING TOOL! I have broken/stripped too many screws, heads, etc. without them.

Lastly, all hex & TORX bits are NOT CREATED EQUALLY. They can & do vary in their diameters, so if you find a bit that works well, mark it. Again, trial & error is sometimes the best teacher!
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