challenger question - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:16 PM
waltfraz
US Navy Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2012
Posts: 
229
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
challenger question



Log in to see fewer ads
Are 1984 challengers same as buckmark first year models? do they have same frame?What are the main diffrences in lll and ll models?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-24-2013, 09:08 PM
Steve60

Join Date: 
Feb 2009
Location: 
Upstate SC
Posts: 
66
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I'm not an expert, but have a CII. The frame is steel on the CII, and alloy on the CIII. The CIII is more like the Buckmark, I think the barrel and the mag are interchangeable. The barrels will not interchange from the CII and CIII. The CII came (at least mine did) with an 6 3/4" small barrel where as the CIII came with a slab sided bull barrel. Also the magazines are alittle different.
There are more knowledgeable people on these that with probably correct me or add to this.
Hope this helps
Steve

Last edited by Steve60; 02-24-2013 at 09:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-24-2013, 09:25 PM
M2HB's Avatar
M2HB
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2004
Location: 
Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 
28,738
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
The Challenger IIs were made from 1975 to 1982 with maybe a few in 1983. A 1984 manufactured Challenger shoud be a Challenger III which is very similar to a BuckMark. Steve is very accurate in his description. The Challenger III has a heel mag release so modern BuckMark mags would have to be modified with the heel notch in order to work. Barrels will interchange from the Challenger III to the BM.
Even though the Challenger III and BuckMarks are similar, they aren't the same.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 02-25-2013, 12:05 PM
seaotter's Avatar
seaotter
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2008
Location: 
NW MT
Posts: 
790
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
The Challenger III started in 1983 with a 5 1/2" slab sided barrel, called a "bull barrel" by Browning. Starting in 1984 a 6 3/4" "pencil barrel", similar in appearance to the barrel on the C-II was added. As far as I know the magazines on the C-II and C-III are the same.

M2HB, Some references show the production of the C-II started in 1975. Production and/or design may have started in 1975, however, I don't think any have a RV date code indicating 1975. As far as I can determine all first year C-II's have RT for a date code indicating 1976 production. Browning changed their method of date coding from numbers indicating year to the two letter method in 1976. Also that is when model code changed to the three number system. Yes, some C-II's were made in 1983. I have one. It has the Buck Mark medallion rather than the Browning "B" that is on most C-II"s

SO
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-25-2013, 03:20 PM
M2HB's Avatar
M2HB
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2004
Location: 
Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 
28,738
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
SO, thanks for the info. I have a hard time telling exactly when they changed models, even on the Belgium pistols. Some say 1962, some say 1963, depending on which model. I really liked to see the Medalist prototype at the Browning museum in Ogden.
What is unusual is to see some 2nd generation International Medalists made in France.

We should get a sticky with all the info that we can find on the lineage of these pistols including the pre Woodsman.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-25-2013, 05:54 PM
waltfraz
US Navy Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jun 2012
Posts: 
229
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
One ofmy reasons for asking why buy a challenger lll if its the same as a buckmark.But no one has stated the diffrence between the two tomake someone pay more for challenger lll
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:05 PM
M2HB's Avatar
M2HB
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2004
Location: 
Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 
28,738
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltfraz View Post
One ofmy reasons for asking why buy a challenger lll if its the same as a buckmark.But no one has stated the diffrence between the two tomake someone pay more for challenger lll
There is no reason to buy a Challenger III over a BuckMark except as part of a collection. The slide is different along with the mag release. I have a Challenger III and I like the BuckMark better. I bought the Challenger III for a collection, nothing more. Since the barrels interchange, why not have the newer design with a push button mag release.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-01-2013, 11:00 AM
OldSchoolBrng
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2005
Location: 
Somewhere North of Atlanta
Posts: 
66
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaotter View Post
The Challenger III started in 1983 with a 5 1/2" slab sided barrel, called a "bull barrel" by Browning. Starting in 1984 a 6 3/4" "pencil barrel", similar in appearance to the barrel on the C-II was added. As far as I know the magazines on the C-II and C-III are the same.
I think the mags are different between the CII & CIII. I have an early production Buckmark which has the old style, flat floorplate mags that will fit the CIII. However. I picked up a different style (used) mag in a LGS a couple of years ago, thinking it might fit my Buckmark or an old Belgian Challenger. It did not, but it would fit a friend's CII.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-01-2013, 05:17 PM
seaotter's Avatar
seaotter
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2008
Location: 
NW MT
Posts: 
790
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
OldSchoolBrng,

First, thanks for making me get some out and look at them. Next, when I said the C-III started in 1983, that was incorrect. The C- III actually started in 1982. I have two. I looked at the mags from several CII's and C-III's. The only difference I can see is that the follower on a '76 (SN RT, first year) C-II does not stick up above the lips as it does on those from later years, including the C-III mags. I can not verify whether or not this follower was modified. There is some variation in the size and location of the spot welds on both the C-II and C-III mags. Also there is a small notch on each side, at the top, just in front of the lips. The size of this notch varies from mag to mag in both the C-II and C-III mags.

As an aside, I have a first year C-III (SN 655PY041XX) that came with what is obviously a modified Belgium .22LR mag. Someone cut off the base of the Belgium mag and added another base which changed the angle. 22LR is written on the left side of the added base. Nothing on the bottom except an allen head screw. Anyone know who made such a base? Not a good value trade at today's prices for Belgium Mags. This C-III has the Browning "B" medallion rather than the Buck Mark medallion.

On the other hand I have a 1983 C-II, SN 655PX0280X that has the Buck Mark medallion. I don't believe grips were swapped. I have seen others like this.

All of the Belgium, C-II and C-III mags that I have use a "Z" spring. Browning changed to mags with a coil spring when the Buck Mark came out. Some of the very late C-III may have had a coil spring mag when issued. I cannot verify this for certain. The early mags for the Buck Mark have a notched heel and will also work in the C-II and C-III. These also had a cut-out to accommodate the mag release on the Buck Mark.

Several years ago I passed up a late C-III because it had a mag with the coil spring. At the time I thought it had an after market mag. As I recall the price was about $150. Foolish me.

SO
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-01-2013, 10:37 PM
M2HB's Avatar
M2HB
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2004
Location: 
Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 
28,738
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
I bought several of those early BuckMark mags that were labeled (on the box) Challenger II/III and BuckMark. They have the stamped sides just like a modern BuckMark, except for the heel release notch. I'm glad I bought them because they are sure getting rare. The current BuckMark mag can be modified with the heel notch to work, as some folks have reported. I have enough of them that I have never personally modified one.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-02-2013, 12:25 AM
remnar's Avatar
remnar
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Dec 2008
Location: 
Washington
Posts: 
1,376
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by M2HB View Post
... The current BuckMark mag can be modified with the heel notch to work, as some folks have reported.
Here's a thread discussing the magazine heel mod that M2HB is referencing.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=436713

I've only modded one so far and it continues to be the most reliable magazine in my Challenger II.

-remnar
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-02-2013, 11:56 AM
Deaconblue's Avatar
Deaconblue
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2011
Location: 
Illinois
Posts: 
1,094
TPC Rating: 
100% (15)
As an aside, I have a first year C-III (SN 655PY041XX) that came with what is obviously a modified Belgium .22LR mag. Someone cut off the base of the Belgium mag and added another base which changed the angle. 22LR is written on the left side of the added base. Nothing on the bottom except an allen head screw. Anyone know who made such a base? Not a good value trade at today's prices for Belgium Mags. This C-III has the Browning "B" medallion rather than the Buck Mark medallion.

Seaotter
In a conversation I had with Nick Riggio at Commemorative last fall we were discussing various parts and he told me the relative scarcity of factory Belgian magazines was due to the fact that the leftover inventory were converted to work in the newer pistols. Now I have a Challenger II and can attest to the fact that my mags were not Belgian conversions but I did not press him on the subject. In fact, I can't see how that would even make economic sense to do that but you may be in possession of one of those magazines if that did in fact happen. One would think that more of them would have showed up if several thousand were converted.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-02-2013, 01:45 PM
seaotter's Avatar
seaotter
US Army Veteran NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2008
Location: 
NW MT
Posts: 
790
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaconblue View Post
As an aside, I have a first year C-III (SN 655PY041XX) that came with what is obviously a modified Belgium .22LR mag. Someone cut off the base of the Belgium mag and added another base which changed the angle. 22LR is written on the left side of the added base. Nothing on the bottom except an allen head screw. Anyone know who made such a base? Not a good value trade at today's prices for Belgium Mags. This C-III has the Browning "B" medallion rather than the Buck Mark medallion.

Seaotter
In a conversation I had with Nick Riggio at Commemorative last fall we were discussing various parts and he told me the relative scarcity of factory Belgian magazines was due to the fact that the leftover inventory were converted to work in the newer pistols. Now I have a Challenger II and can attest to the fact that my mags were not Belgian conversions but I did not press him on the subject. In fact, I can't see how that would even make economic sense to do that but you may be in possession of one of those magazines if that did in fact happen. One would think that more of them would have showed up if several thousand were converted.
Quite some time back another poster on this forum described a similar mag as the one I describe above. I couldn't find the post in my search. Can any one answer the question above?

I agree that the Belgium mags were not converted in mass. Perhaps a few as a prototype and then changed to the design that is standard for the C-II and C-III.

SO
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-02-2013, 05:59 PM
M2HB's Avatar
M2HB
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2004
Location: 
Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 
28,738
TPC Rating: 
100% (4)
The original Challeger II and III mags seem to be a design that is a cross between a Belgium mag and the later BuckMark mag. The Challenger II/III have the heavy smooth sides like a Belgium mag, but with a different grip angle.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-02-2013, 06:43 PM
Deaconblue's Avatar
Deaconblue
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Nov 2011
Location: 
Illinois
Posts: 
1,094
TPC Rating: 
100% (15)
According to Nick it was a significant number and was the the reason he was not able to acquire a large number of the magazines when he purchased the rest of the inventory of parts back in the early 80's. The timing would seem correct as the last of the Belgian guns would have been sold in the mid 70's and they would have kept the repair parts around for several years thereafter. Once they decided to no longer support the product line that would have been around the Challenger III era. The Challenger II and III, being made here, would have had different tooling so I would guess that all of that would have been tested and proven before the roll out of the new pistols. That is why there are overlaps between the last of one model and the first of another model. A call to Mr. Riggio might clarify this somewhat as he was the source and may be able to elaborate if anyone is truly interested. The grip angle only affects how the magazine fits at the base of the pistol. The angle at the top of the magazines "the business end" is the same. If one removes the grip from a Belgian Challenger and a Challenger II and lays them side by side with the magazines inserted its easy to see. The magazine is not parallel to the grip in the Challenger II. It is at an angle and explains why the grip is wider on the Challenger II versus the Belgian Challenger.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:33 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x