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Old 05-18-2016, 06:28 PM
The Hen

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Thumbing through a pamphlet published by the N.R.A. concerning cleaning of firearms I was struck by the idea the author posed that after cleaning the barrel and leaving it protected by running a patch moistened with a few drops of gun oil lastly can set up a dangerous situation. He sermonized that if the next shooter does not run a dry patch to remove that film of oil the next round could cause dangerously high pressures and result in calamity! May I say HOGWASH! If that was indeed the case no one would ever shoot more than one round between cleanings. The obstruction and weight of the debris left behind from the previous cartridge including leading, copper fouling, unspent powder debris, leftover primer fouling etc. has to be worse than the oil film! Just saying..... Grrr.. I can't stop. I have read accounts of barrels so fouled with lead that bullets leave the barrel and keyhole. Also that barrels were so encrusted with lead shavings that a cleaning rod could not be inserted yet I am to believe a microscopic film of oil is a dangerous situation!!
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:54 PM
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An oiled bore and chamber may not be a problem with a rimfire.

An oily chamber can be a problem with a centerfire. If the cartridge case cannot grip and hang on to the chamber walls, bolt thrust can rise to dangerous levels. Back in the 20's it was common to grease bullets in an attempt to reduce jacket fouling. Some of the grease ended up in the chamber and a lot of Model 1903 Springfields blew up as a result of the practice.

Even if that does not happen the thickness of an oil film in the chamber effectively means a tighter chamber. For those who are shooting redline pressure loads anyway, this can put it over the top.

If it was put away oily, just run a dry patch thru it before firing.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:12 PM
retiredsarge48
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I have always run a patch with a few drops of oil thru the bore after cleaning and have never experienced any problem. When I reloaded 243 years ago I used a fairly hot load and never saw any sign of case problems.
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Old 05-18-2016, 11:55 PM
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I don't know if it is a problem, but I always run a dry patch or two through after an oil patch. There's still enough left in the bore to protect it, and not enough to cause a problem. I have a 45 year old Marlin 25, bought brand new, that I've always done this to, and the bore looks as shiny as the first time I shot it. Thousands of Thunderbolts and Golden Bullets through it too.
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Old 05-19-2016, 01:33 AM
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A 22lr lubes the chamber every time you load it! Not a problem.

Lubed centerfire chamber in an older weaker action? Problem!

This is one way that over long periods of doing this could lead to bolt set back. It COULD cause a one time blow up but not likely. It is not a good idea over the long run for sure. EVERY loading manual stresses removing case lube for this reason. Why would it not be the same for oil left in the chamber?

Bolt thrust can be a very serious problem in and old rifle. Also not all rifles are built the same. A Model 700 Rem or a SAKO might not have a problem. An H&R break action in the same caliber might not survive the repeated abuse.

A Krag Jorgenson rifle with one lug?

Low number Springfield?

I could go on but you may get the point. When the person writing the article wrote it he did not write it for the STRONGEST rifle he wrote it for the WEAKEST action and I have to agree with his approach.

On top of that I DO believe it is a very bad form to leave oil in the chamber of a centerfire rifle.

Here is another separate thought. Working in a gunsmithing shop you get to see many things you may not see if you haven't. How do most people store their rifles....vertically. A drop of oil here and a drop there and pretty soon you have a stock that is soaking in oil in the rear tang area of a bolt action. Softens the stock in an important area.

10 years ago I was first helping my friend in his shop and in a couple days we got in at least 4 or 5 rifles with oil soaked stocks. I was feeling all superior to these fools when I went to refinish my walnut 1976 10/22 stock........yup. Oil soaked stock at the wrist and I have always been very careful to never over oil my semis but it does flow downhill. So in a centerfire the oil in the barrel is GOING to end up in the chamber at some point. Oil in the CHAMBER is bad. I have been taught this for 50 years and experience has shown me that there is truth to it..

Like I said. Probably not once...or twice. Probably not in a strong new rifle. But the guy writing that had to write it for 100 or 120 year old rifles and of all the things steel DOES one thing it does not do is get STRONGER over time.

You can get as twisted as you care to but I would have written the SAME THING!
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Old 05-19-2016, 03:39 AM
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Common sense says

I quick wipe with a dry patch followed by a light film of gun oil holds no danger. If you are running on the ragged edge of pressures as to have a problem with trace amounts of oil in a chamber I submit to you that oil will be the least of your worries. Over pressures will cause catastrophic failure long before any oil has a chance to factor in. Now swamping a barrel full of oil is different and not what is intended from the beginning.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:20 AM
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I'm with

Plenty Coups on this one. After a cleaning, I always run a lightly oiled patch of Kroil through the barrel. I have never had an issue with this method for over 60 years. Patch is not "soaked" with Kroil - just enough to lube the barrel. Below are the results of this method. Cold Bore Shot is right out of my .22BR following the stated cleaning method. To me, can't get any better than this.

100 YARDS


Pat G
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
A 22lr lubes the chamber every time you load it! Not a problem.

Not so sure I can buy into that Mr. VINCENT. Forcing cone, throat OK, chamber not OK. But even if so the lube is not in a liquid format and has some wax in it. Not the same as an "oil" which is what the guy is talking about.

Plus you are picking up some abrasives in the form of glass from the primer which counteracts IMO and IME the pneumatic properties of the lube.


Lubed centerfire chamber in an older weaker action? Problem!

This is one way that over long periods of doing this could lead to bolt set back. It COULD cause a one time blow up but not likely. It is not a good idea over the long run for sure. EVERY loading manual stresses removing case lube for this reason. Why would it not be the same for oil left in the chamber?

Bolt thrust can be a very serious problem in and old rifle. Also not all rifles are built the same. A Model 700 Rem or a SAKO might not have a problem. An H&R break action in the same caliber might not survive the repeated abuse.

A Krag Jorgenson rifle with one lug?

Low number Springfield?

I could go on but you may get the point. When the person writing the article wrote it he did not write it for the STRONGEST rifle he wrote it for the WEAKEST action and I have to agree with his approach.

On top of that I DO believe it is a very bad form to leave oil in the chamber of a centerfire rifle.

Liquid oil in the chamber acts pneumatically during the moment of expansion when a round is fired regardless of what caliber you are shooting and that includes pellet rifle pellet skirts.

The result is the cartridge case cannot grip the chamber.

On bottle neck cartridges the results can be extraordinary to the point that they can overwhelm the safety limits of the bolt causing catastrophic failure. Ditto if you leave the case lube on the cartridge case.


Less so on straight walled cartridges but still there and for something like a 45/70 could blow up a weak action like an 1873 Springfield.

In the case of .22's the size of the bolt relative to the cartridge is much much larger then the same relationship for a centerfire so you don't see it much there
but again the mechanical results are still there.

In a bolt action .22 with excessive headspace you could have a real problem.

Since SAFETY is THE primary concern on any piece of pipe that uses an explosive to force a projectile out of it, it simply is not a good idea.


Personally I have never met a professional gunsmith although I have only met maybe 20, or heard of any firearms manufacture that does not recommend running a dry patch through the bore before shooting for the first time after storage.

I can state from experience during classes at the Colorado School of Trades-Gunsmithing School from 50 years ago that if you did not dry patch the bore on a rifle and bore and cylinders on a revolver if they had been oiled, you got an "F" and it did not stand for "fine".

Here is another separate thought. Working in a gunsmithing shop you get to see many things you may not see if you haven't. How do most people store their rifles....vertically. A drop of oil here and a drop there and pretty soon you have a stock that is soaking in oil in the rear tang area of a bolt action. Softens the stock in an important area.

Gonna pitch in here with one of my sticky's on Howard's Feed-N-Wax which is a "crowd pleaser" on RFC and for which I get mucho grief and almost as many anecdotal comments such as "been using for 1,000 years and no problems..." Got some new ones like "like folks that quote myths from the INTERNET...."

Petroleum based oils are not miscible with water which means they will not mix and create a new liquid.

They are plasticizers which means they will soften any finish and do even more damage to wood fibers and the cellulose in the substrate below the finish.

Plasticizers also migrate which is known as “Plasticizer Migration”. What it means is that the chemical will spread from its original location to other locations migrating under the finish and adversely effecting the bond between the finish and the substrate.


I am going to agree 100% with VINCENT that "drops" turn into real problems faster then most folks might think. Many folks store barrel down cause they know about oil migration but never give it a thought about it migrating from a home care product.

10 years ago I was first helping my friend in his shop and in a couple days we got in at least 4 or 5 rifles with oil soaked stocks. I was feeling all superior to these fools when I went to refinish my walnut 1976 10/22 stock........yup. Oil soaked stock at the wrist and I have always been very careful to never over oil my semis but it does flow downhill. So in a centerfire the oil in the barrel is GOING to end up in the chamber at some point. Oil in the CHAMBER is bad. I have been taught this for 50 years and experience has shown me that there is truth to it..

Like I said. Probably not once...or twice. Probably not in a strong new rifle. But the guy writing that had to write it for 100 or 120 year old rifles and of all the things steel DOES one thing it does not do is get STRONGER over time.

You can get as twisted as you care to but I would have written the SAME THING!
noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 05-19-2016 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:34 AM
Mike Clark

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hen View Post
Thumbing through a pamphlet published by the N.R.A. concerning cleaning of firearms I was struck by the idea the author posed that after cleaning the barrel and leaving it protected by running a patch moistened with a few drops of gun oil lastly can set up a dangerous situation. He sermonized that if the next shooter does not run a dry patch to remove that film of oil the next round could cause dangerously high pressures and result in calamity! May I say HOGWASH! If that was indeed the case no one would ever shoot more than one round between cleanings. The obstruction and weight of the debris left behind from the previous cartridge including leading, copper fouling, unspent powder debris, leftover primer fouling etc. has to be worse than the oil film! Just saying..... Grrr.. I can't stop. I have read accounts of barrels so fouled with lead that bullets leave the barrel and keyhole. Also that barrels were so encrusted with lead shavings that a cleaning rod could not be inserted yet I am to believe a microscopic film of oil is a dangerous situation!!
The concern is if the oil detonates it can bulge the barrel. Supposedly it has happened. It can diesel in an air rifle.

In general it is not a bad idea to at least check the bore before shooting.

It probably also eliminates variable on CCB and CB shots.
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Old 05-21-2016, 01:39 PM
The Hen

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You can get as twisted as you care to--- Ok I do care to say at least this. Take a cotton gun patch, add 3 or 4 drops of gun oil, let it soak in and weigh it, then run it through a barrel and weigh it again. I don't have a scale that accurate but my logic tells me that difference is infintesimal. Now how we got to the point of a ruined oil-soaked wooden stock I have no clue! Most of us would agree that gun oil is not as thick and heavy as bullet wax. Yet a bullseye shooter, after meticulusly cleaning a bore, will not shoot for groups until it has been properly seasoned with wax laid down, a rule of thumb of one round per inch of barrel length. Wax a good thing, microscopic film of gun oil a dangerous situation! Uhh-- gun oil in an open barrel is not the same as an explosive mixture in a closed off terrorist pipe bomb.
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Old 05-21-2016, 06:22 PM
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Okay I NEVER said that bullet lube will migrate or that it is even a problem.....it is NOT a problem!. BUT as much as I respect George I think he misunderstood what I was saying.

WATCH how most 22's feed a round into the chamber. Usually nose up so the bullet lube is going to be on the chamber wall NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!

Taking a more extreme look at this open a can of "SK Magazine". Take a barrel that is not even IN a rifle. Take ONE round right off the top of the pile which has less lube because this lube DOES migrate to the bottom of the CAN! Now with barrel in hand or vice insert the round into the chamber fully. Now remove that bullet as carefully as you can to keep the lube off the chamber wall. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL INSERTING AND REMOVING THE CARTRIDGE BECAUSE YOU ARE TRYING NOT TO LUBE THE CHAMBER WALLS.

Now the barrel is unloaded. Shine bright light into the chamber walls. See anything? I would bet next month's disability check that the chamber wall is WELL lubed. Don't believe it? Put a patch on a jag. Put it into the chamber. Pull it out.....oily bullet lube.

Now mount that barrel on any 10/22 or Marlin 60 or 795. Load a magazine....if fact load FIVE magazines with CCI Mini Mag. SHOOT the 50 rounds. Check the chamber walls. See anything. Waxy bullet lube! Don't see it? Do the chamber patch thing again. Waxy bullet lube because ALL 22 rounds are lubed and it is IMPOSSIBLE to load a 22 with out lubing the chamber walls!!

Now I THINK Mr noremf will agree with all of what I said. That is what I was saying in the original post is that all 22lr chambers are lubed and it will not damage anything.....but that is not what we were talking about. We were talking about oil in centerfires. I was just making the point that while some lube, even the VERY oily SK Magazine a 22lr is safe with a lubed chamber.

As far as I am concerned NO CENTER FIRE IS SAFE TO REPEATEDLY SHOOT WITH OIL IN THE CHAMBER OVER LONG PERIOD AND SOME ARE PROBABLY NOT SAFE FOR ONE SHOT.

Let's take this one step further. Ever size a case with too much lube on the case? You get dimples in the case walls where the oil hydraulically presses a dimple into the case wall. I can not prove the next sentence but I have read well respected researchers and writers say that if there is a small droplet of oil in the barrel of a high pressure/velocity cartridge it has been proven that a bullet passing over the droplet CAN put an impression into the bore of the rifle. I am not claiming I know this to be fact but I have read well known researchers quotes written into articles by trusted an knowledgeable writers.
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Last edited by Vincent; 05-21-2016 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 05-24-2016, 01:47 PM
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Thanks, George (noremf), that is a great explanation of oil reaction in a bore/chamber when a round is fired.
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Old 05-24-2016, 04:42 PM
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Gun Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hen View Post
You can get as twisted as you care to--- Ok I do care to say at least this. Take a cotton gun patch, add 3 or 4 drops of gun oil, let it soak in and weigh it, then run it through a barrel and weigh it again. I don't have a scale that accurate but my logic tells me that difference is infintesimal. Now how we got to the point of a ruined oil-soaked wooden stock I have no clue! Most of us would agree that gun oil is not as thick and heavy as bullet wax. Yet a bullseye shooter, after meticulusly cleaning a bore, will not shoot for groups until it has been properly seasoned with wax laid down, a rule of thumb of one round per inch of barrel length. Wax a good thing, microscopic film of gun oil a dangerous situation! Uhh-- gun oil in an open barrel is not the same as an explosive mixture in a closed off terrorist pipe bomb.
Gun oil in the barrel is not the issue as it gets pushed out with the first couple of rounds albeit bench rest shooters will remove it if the rifle or pistol has been "oiled" to protect it from rust etc. it prior to shooting.

And you are correct that we will "relube" the bore before shooting for score.

It's the oil in the chamber that is the issue. When the cartridge tries to form a gas check oil in the chamber reacts hydraulically and makes that a whole lot harder to do.

Like never cleaning your furnace filters. The dirtier they get the more strain you put on your HVAC.

How did we get from oil in the chamber to oil soaked stocks. Easy. No matter how little oil used as a lubricant is left to soak into the wood it will contaminate it in a variety of ways and if it is left on the stock finish it will soften the finish and find a way to get to the substrate.

How long it will take to "soak" a stock, normally the grip area, is anybody's guess but the chemicals are going to do what the chemicals are going to do, not what we want them to do.

There are folks that will spray oil used as a lubricant or stuff like WD40 down the barrel before they store the weapons. There are folks that will spray stuff like CLP on every visible metal surface. And there are folks that will use oil used as a lubricant to wipe down their stocks.....makes em nice and shiny.

Most of em because either some do-do bird posts that they do that or there is a YouTube video of one of em doing it.

I don't know any chemists, professional woodworkers, professional gunsmiths or firearms manufacturers making consumer rifles that recommend wiping down a consumer wooden stock with an oil used as a lubricant. Or even Hoppes #9.

For every one of "you" (The Hen) that don't do stuff like this there is a growing number of folks that can and do "bubba" up firearms because they believe the almighty INTERNET is the source of all knowledge.

Consequently when I get a chance to warn folks on a thread that is probably going to interest a number of em I don't pass it up.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 05-28-2016 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 05-24-2016, 06:38 PM
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I would think the worst thing about leaving oil in the barrel is that you won't know where the first couple of shots are going to go. For hunting or target shooting you never want to start out shooting a clean barrel.

To clean a .22 Rifle I dip several rounds of cheap ammo in hoppe 9 and shoot it. When you look down the barrel it's spotless. It generally makes the cheap stuff shoot better as well.

I got that from an old AMU shooter. Maybe he was pulling my leg but it works.
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:15 AM
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I use to generously oil the bores and chamber of my rifles when hunting season was over, usually by the end of Nov. or sooner depending on my luck, until the following hunting season the next year. I never dry patched em before shooting. Lucky I guess as CF bolt calibers went up to 300WinMag. On the plus side I diligently cleaned and oiled em and stored em muzzle down. Deer hunting calibers rounds were never squandered shooting groups, unless re-zeroing the gun. Olden tymes.
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