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Notes on old Browning pistols from Belgium

30K views 41 replies 12 participants last post by  castironcook 
#1 ·
I know there are a few others on here who are fascinated with the old Belgian pistols. There's another thread that morphed into some discussion on variations found on these pistols.

I checked the older Browning pistols to see which pistols had plastic or metal used for the tabs on the safety and slide release levers. Of the pistols made in Belgium, none of mine has metal tabs on the safety or slide release. Only one has a metal magazine catch - a 1964 Medalist. Examples of various models from the years 1964, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1971, and 1975

As a side, I didn't expect it, but my 1977 Challenger II and 1982 Challenger III have all metal tabs and metal mag catches.

The last pistol that found a new home here is what was billed as an "FN International Medalist". I thought I heard that FN had marketed some pistols like they made for Browning under their own name. This pistol came in a plastic FN case. Under the ratty-looking eggcrate foam the lined the interior of the box I found this owner's manual. Note how it describes the pistol as a Browning .22 International. No mention of the word "Medalist":



A far cry from the manuals of today (there's a 35 page Ruger MKII manual on the desk as I type this). The old manual is a simple tri-folded sheet of paper. All instructions are on one side of the paper. It is interesting that the manual doesn't mention the dry firing capability of the International. The dry fire mechanism functions exactly the same as on the "regular" Medalists. The other side of the paper is the title page in the first picture, a parts list and an exploded view:



They have a tendency to throw curve balls on occasion. The FN I drilled and tapped for the dot last week felt pretty good. Along came what I thought was a twin. Even had the same (1975) year of production. However, the two pistols felt good but very different. Both had excellent triggers, but the grips felt strange when switching back and forth between the two. Then came the "DUH". The palm shelves are different. The curvature at the back of the grips are different and the area for the trigger finger is dished out differently. In this photo the frames are wearing the "wrong" barrels:



When possible I gather spare parts to guarantee the kids will be able to keep these pistols running after I'm gone. There are two mag catches here below the plastic Nomad grip- one metal(L) and one plastic(R):

 
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#2 ·
chim, some of those late model pistols with different stocks are called the "Practice 150". I don't have one so I can't give you all the details on them. I have also seen the late model International Medalist with the old style rear sight instead of the stamped unit.
 
#3 ·
Chim,
Thanks for the info on the tabs and the FN IM. Nice find and good photos. Your observation on the tabs is the same as what I find. Do the grips on both pistols in the photo appear to be factory? Looks like there may have been some after market carving on the grips of the top pistol in the photo, albeit a decent looking job. Are the serial numbers close or far apart?

I couldn't help but notice the ammo in the ammo block. Peaks my curiosity, "What modification is Chim thinking of now?!!!!! :Blasting_
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Just Kidding and hope that doesn't keep you awake at night thinking of what else is there to change.

SO
 
#5 · (Edited)
I know there are a few others on here who are fascinated with the old Belgian pistols. There's another thread that morphed into some discussion on variations found on these pistols.

I checked the older Browning pistols to see which pistols had plastic or metal used for the tabs on the safety and slide release levers. Of the pistols made in Belgium, none of mine has metal tabs on the safety or slide release. Only one has a metal magazine catch - a 1964 Medalist. Examples of various models from the years 1964, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1971, and 1975

As a side, I didn't expect it, but my 1977 Challenger II and 1982 Challenger III have all metal tabs and metal mag catches.

The last pistol that found a new home here is what was billed as an "FN International Medalist". I thought I heard that FN had marketed some pistols like they made for Browning under their own name. This pistol came in a plastic FN case. Under the ratty-looking eggcrate foam the lined the interior of the box I found this owner's manual. Note how it describes the pistol as a Browning .22 International. No mention of the word "Medalist":



A far cry from the manuals of today (there's a 35 page Ruger MKII manual on the desk as I type this). The old manual is a simple tri-folded sheet of paper. All instructions are on one side of the paper. It is interesting that the manual doesn't mention the dry firing capability of the International. The dry fire mechanism functions exactly the same as on the "regular" Medalists. The other side of the paper is the title page in the first picture, a parts list and an exploded view:
Chim,
I know this is a very old post. But do you think you could scan me the owners guide as shown in the first picture. I have been taking recently with an old shooting member at our club who used to work at FN Herstal. When he saw my collection of FN guns his eyes twinkeld, and he shed some light on the names that FN used in the 70-80s.
And the owners guide would be usefull to put a more or less complete list together. I'll post his reactions here later, i'll try to document where possible.

Also since mine is identical to yours including the case.


Thanks
Marc
 
#9 ·
I have two different kinds of mounts. On a first model International there's a piece of Weaver rail that is coped to go over the vent rib, and there's a metal slug that sticks through an opening with screws on each side to clamp it onto the rib. There's one short and another longer below. This is the setup I'm using in matches this season. I did switch to a compact Bushnell TRS25 because I had difficulty with the Docter's non-adjustable brightness on some of the ranges we shoot in. I like that little scope.





Then there's the second model that has rings made from tall Leupold mounts. I cut the bases to get rid of the clamps and get a flat base. Then I tapered the bottom on each side to blend it into the solid rail. The rail is tapped for screws that come down through the bottom half of the rings.



I did add a setscrew to lock the rail in a bit tighter. There was a very small amount of play in it.

 
#12 ·
That is the screw the factory used on the second model Internationals. Here's a picture I sent along with the parts a few years ago when one went for the hard chrome finish. The finisher asked for a detailed list of parts if the whole pistol wasn't sent:



And here's a picture of the three types of barrel screws found on the Belgians. The left one is used on Medalists, The center on Challengers, Nomads and first model Internationals. I've only seen the right one on second model Internationals. I have a tendency to swap things around and discovered that some barrels don't like screws from other barrels.

 
#14 ·
Chim, Cramiekske and all,

Let me shed some light on the confusion:

1. You will find metal catches on the pistols until 1964. Also note there were changes in the magazines in 1964. The earlier magazines had the alloy follower, a round, flat top "pot" metal follower button and a body with two solid sides. In 1964 you will find a plastic follower and a plastic follower button. It appears the plastic follower button was short lived as it was changed to a steel follower button with a dimple and a "punch hole" was added to the right side as the button was now peened. You will find many changes and additions at Browning Arms Company (BAC) in 1964 i.e. addition of pouches, oil, holsters etc. By 1965 they were back to the alloy follower and the magazine has remained the same. As always the Company used on hand parts and not all pistols were shipped the same time as the manfactured serial number, so if you find differences there may be a reason.

2. As to your "I 75" "International" with no mention of Medalist on the manual. First you must understand where (Country) and how it is being discussed. You must look at the "RIGHT" side barrel address as you will find on the "FN" pistol it will have Browning Patent --etc.--- and on a BCA pistol it will have "Browning Arms Company Morgan. Utah & Montreal P.Q.". Both have Fabrique Nationale ----on the left side. FN called this pistol an "International" and BCA cataloged this in 1980 only, but listed it in the wholesale price list from 1977 to 1980 calling it an International "Medalist". Your FN is boxed in the plastic case whereas the BCA is contained in a Styrofoam box, a black sleeve with gold accents and worded "(FN logo) BrowninG .22 L. R. Pistol, at least the ones sold and shipped by BAC in 1977. Note: The Medalist with a 5 7/8" or 5.9" or 150mm barrel (again who's talking) was referred by FN as a Medalist with a 5 7/8" barrel (referring to USA), but BAC cataloged it as a International Medalist. Hence the reason the ones made later in France are called the International II, if BAC had sold these, which they did not, they would have been ?? the International III?

3. As to your manual not referring to a dry-fire mechanism, I don't "think" the "I 75" has one, mine doesn't or I can't get it to move forward and engage and the cut-out in the grip is not condusive for one to be used . If you find different please let me know as you said yours does and I have found no manufacture data that says it does. The 1980 BAC catalog make no mention of a dry-fire mechanism and they make a defined distinction about having it when describing their Medalist and the International Medalist 5 7/8" in the earlier catalogs. I have found the manual used in the FN models has the brown color, as your example, and the BAC are blue in color as shown on my manual board in another post. I'm pretty sure of this, but it could be a printing change etc.

You must always remember when conversing with Cramiekske, a great guy, that he is from Belgium and his terminology and names of the same pistols are different than here in the USA.

I hope this sheds some light on some of the confusion as to the "I 75" series of the International, Mark
 
#15 · (Edited)
Hi mark,
Thanks for the nice kind words, but it leaves me a bit puzzled now.

I only have 1 International of my own so its hard to compaire but mine does have a dry fire system build in. But i've seen many others at the club, And I'm sure the majority have a dry fire system. I'm sure about that because I explain to new shooters that I assist/tutor the first 6 months that this is an extra safety (if engaged) to the gun so it might not accidentally go off (loaded with live rounds) if kept at Home with younger children. Probably you'll shout "NEVER" How could that be? But I've seen many stupid errors over the years, that could ended badly. Just because they were careless, or kids got inventive, the dry fire is not something that is very easy to dissable if you don't know the correct function. So for me personal it's also a nice safety feature.

(This Image is Too Large to Be Displayed Within the Post. Click Link to View) (1181 kB)

Secondely mine is also an I75 with following barrel address.
Left side: Fabrique National Herstal - made in Belgium. Right side: Browning Arms Company, morgan, Utah & Montréal (see pictures)
(This Image is Too Large to Be Displayed Within the Post. Click Link to View) (1234 kB)
(This Image is Too Large to Be Displayed Within the Post. Click Link to View) (1012 kB)

So what is the real name for the pistol. For me as a Belgian this is a "FN international" (series 1). But at the end if we disregard the name we are still talking about the same pistol. Can't help it if FN or Browning made it so hard on us it's not my fault. I'm just trying to give my perspective and remarks from across the great pond, where it all started. ;-))

On a personal note I hope that one day when I'm again in the US and in the neigbourhood, and I have enough time, I might have the possibility to visit your marvelous collection in person.

Just a small addition to this post. If you download from stevepages the user guide from the International/Practice 150 you will find on page 13 the complete explainnaition of the dry-fire mecanisme on the international. It is not there in the previous manual. But it looks like it is installed.http://stevespages.com/pdf/browning_international2.pdf

Oh, And one more last thing, but I pressume this will be a Belgian thing. Mine came in a similar Gray plastic case as Chim's.


Greetings from Belgium
 
#16 ·
My "I 75's" have a safety and click plate like shown on the left of the picture, giving them dry-fire capability. Note the dimples (safety on/off) and longer slot shaped depression ((allows the lever to travel up & down to reset sear) on the plate and the elongated hole in the safety lever so the lever can move back and forth on the pin.

Some of the pistols are easier to get into and out of the dry-fire mode than others.

 
#17 ·
Chim & Cramiekske,

Thanks for the update and information. My "I 75" was the last .22 I obtained for my display as it is the only one I have been able to purchase that could be verified it was sold by BAC. It is mint and I have not taken the grips off and as I said I could not get a dry-fire to engage, Maybe it is just dry. I am heading to a gun show, but upon return I will pull the grips, inspect and respond. Cramieske, It is not a big deal what name is used for the same pistol and I know most of the names. My concern is , it appears many reading the forum tend it mistake some of these names as being different pistols i.e. FN calling the I 75 an International and BCA calling the same pistol an International Medalist. Also, we must remember by 1977 (when these were being sold) FN had purchased 90% of BAC so the names on the barrel addresses could be sold everywhere, so now you will find BAC addresses elswhere than North America. It is quite confusing and sometims I don't want to get into this because it takes a lot of thought and knowledge to figure what has happened. They wanted to sell guns and anything goes, not what the collector wants to hear. Tonight I will post a picture of my "I 75" in the Styrofoam box with sleeve for you to see. I appreciate seeing the plastic FN box. Even though BAC was owned by FN, to my knowledge, BAC never sold the International II made in France., but it was imported by another Company and sold in the US. Thanks again for the input, Mark
 
#18 ·
Chim, Cramiekske and all,

First, let me apologize as my "I 75" International Medalist does have a Dry-Fire mechanism. I removed the grips and found what you showed. After a pretty good tug it went into the the Dry-Fire. It appears it had never been set in this pistol and was very hard at first, a little shot of oil and it works better now. With the way the the safety lever is set into the grip (very close) I could not get the force to set the mechanism. It is odd the catalog information does not mention this system as they made a big deal out of it in the earlier catalogs on the earlier Medalist. I study all these models and display them, but I have never shot this model and I have now received a lesson which I appreciate and say Thank You.

My FN manual is on my display board and I am not able to view at this time, but my pistol has the BAC Medalist manual enclosed and as with my GP competion Hi Power which came with both the FN and the BAC manual I had understood it was for the registration card which is not attached to the FN manual, but in this case I see it would also explain the Dry-Fire mechanism. I also found the grip sides are numbered as to make a set. The grips on this BAC marked seem a much nicer finish than I have seen on most, although Chim's is very nice also.

Below is the picture showing the Styrofoam box with sleeve. It appears the only item I am missing is a wrench to tighten the nut on the magazine to limit the number of cartridges, if one exists. You can possibly answer this question and if one did come with this pistol where might I get one? Please let me know if anything else is missing or anything I should know.

 
#20 ·
I like seeing the pictures and info on the old Brownings. I posted this picture before but since the topic of grips came up, here it is again. The pistol with the poorest finish is the one I had hard chromed. All three of the pistols are dated 1975. It looks like there were at least 3 different vendors used to provide grips. Unless you saw these pistols together the differences may go unnoticed. None appear to have been modified or refinished at all.

I wanted a set of adjustable target grips for a Belgian frame. I would prefer Nill or Rink, but no luck. XL Nills (on other pistols) fit me OK. Nills aren't available, so I managed to get a pair of the largest Rink grips. They're too small, so #2 Son was gifted so he could try them on the first model International he'll probably keep. As a last and somewhat painful resort I carved up one of the factory grips to make it fit better. They feel great and I'm afraid to try to finish them off nicer because it may change the fit. With an improvement to my average slightly in excess of 9 points this season over last year, why take the chance? I'm not under any illusion - the grips are ugly.





 
#21 · (Edited)
I like seeing the pictures and info on the old Brownings. I posted this picture before but since the topic of grips came up, here it is again. All three of the pistols are dated 1975. It looks like there were at least 3 different vendors used to provide grips. Unless you saw these pistols together the differences may go unnoticed. None appear to have been modified or refinished at all.

I wanted a set of adjustable target grips for a Belgian frame. I would prefer Nill or Rink, but no luck. XL Nills (on other pistols) fit me OK. Nills aren't available, so I managed to get a pair of the largest Rink grips. As a last and somewhat painful resort I carved up one of the factory grips to make it fit better. They feel great and I'm afraid to try to finish them off nicer because it may change the fit. - the grips are ugly.
I agree completely with Chim, the variations in grips on an International are like leaves on an oak tree. And there are no 2 identical. Initially I thought I had a pair of nice grips, but after shooting them for a while I noticed they were not as comftable as I would like them to be. Also they were only for Right hand shooters, and since I also practice with my left hand I was stuck on that point, so I decided not to carv the original grip as Chim did, (mainly because I don't have the skills for it) so I decided to put a more adapted modern Challenger grip on my International, which I found on eBay for around 15 USD.
Have not yet regretted this for a second.

Old grips


New grips
 
#22 ·
sorry being late to the party. I came across this thread during a google search while researching a pistol I recently bought at auction. Got it pretty cheap and then had to figure out what I had.

The grips are unmarked and left handed and I doubt factory. The sights are missing, as is the weight.


 
#23 ·
Interesting, but it appears you have what FN called a .22 L. R. Automatic Pistol on the outer box and "International" on the manual. It was all Belgian made with the "I" serial. It was not the International II which was made in France with the Alpha-Numeric serial, although they look the same. These pistols were made for the 1976 Olympics and were mostly sold in Canada, from what I have found, although Browning Arms Company cataloged them in 1980, but were shown in their wholesale price lists from 1977-1980. The left hand grips are the same as used on the Browning Arms Company (called) International Medalist "T" serial, but was referred to by FN as a Medalist with a 5 7/8" barrel and sometimes referred to as a 5.9" or a 150mm barrel. FN made the same grip for the European market, but they had an oil finish instead of the gloss on yours. The nut on the one magazine came with this type pistol to be able to limit the number of cartridges from the full capacity of 10. Hope this helps, Mark
 
#24 · (Edited)
Please excuse me...but I am also coming in late on this interesting discussion, and would like to follow-up on the dry-fire mechanism. Please refer to "Chim"'s post above, post #16 for details and pictures that apply.

Like Chim once posted, it would be interesting to see how many parts are different in the dry-fire mechanism, and if it would be reasonably easy and possible to retrofit these pieces to other guns (Challengers ?) that supposedly don't have this feature.

I have an original 1978 version of the factory parts lists for the Nomad / Challenger / Medalist series...and have found some interesting (but also conflicting) information.

For example, the Medalist click plate that Chim shows...is listed as part number PO51730 for "Nomad"....but shows part number PO51731 for "Challenger and Medalist". This is odd, as Chim's picture clearly shows that there needs to be a matching piece, the safety with the "hook" ( to presumably allow recocking in the dry-fire mode). Again, from the parts list, we find this for the safety lever.... part number PO51980 for "Nomad and Challenger"....and part number PO51984 for "Medlaist". If the click plate information is correct, then we should expect the safety to be the same for Challenger and Medalist, but it is not .

I don't have my pristine '74 Challenger (bought new) apart in front of me at the moment...but my recollection is that there may be a "slot" in the clickplate like Medalist. Can others here confirm?. Does somehow the Challenger have this feature all along, and we don't know it? (LATER EDIT.....found this thread where someone had a Challenger with a Medalist click plate, and the responders here had no idea how that feature got there as a possible factory fitment---> http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417953&highlight=challenger)

Aside....as to parts numbers. I notice that the 1978 factory parts list uses a PO51XXX numbering system, whereas my Challenger owner's manual removes the "PO" and also removes the "1". For example.... Challenger sear is 5791 in my owners manual....but is shown as PO51791 in the parts list. Did anyone notice this?

.
 
#26 ·
VH... no doubt....however.....I've now seen a number of Challengers with the Medalist style click plate, and wonder if it has the same dry-fire capability as Medalist. Seems to me that the Challenger would then also need the "hooked" safety lever of Medalist....I have never torn-down a Challenger ( with Medalist click plate) that far to know for sure.

Maybe Chim, Seaotter, or others closer to the game here may offer an opinion ?

The other possibility is that during original assembly at the factory, there is nothing wrong with installing a Medalist click plate in a Challenger, as it would function as well either way in the anticipated Challenger condition ( ie, no dry-fire capability).
 
#27 · (Edited)
OK. As I have all 3 off them, a Medalist, a Challenger and an International, and it was time to give the Challenger a cleaning I observed that mine - fabrication date = 1962, so an early model - also has the double click plate as in the Medalist.




what it does not have is the bend safety switch as you can see in Chims pictures (middle one), so it's impossible to engage. I have not yet tried to disassemble my International and see if I can transplant the complete rear safety. But as it looks to me I think the Challenger has nearly everything on board to have the dry-fire mecanisme



Sorry for the large pictures.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Cramiekske....Thank you for the pictures....usually "big" is no problem, but these are HUGE ! Perhaps there is a way to slightly resize these before posting?

Anyway....to add to the data-set, I will soon take possession of a fire-damaged ( but still perfectly functional) Challenger....as a resurrection project (!)....more to come on this topic on a separate thread. From the many pictures I received from the seller, here is one that ALSO seems to show the Medalist click plate installed. Gun is 1968 build-date---> I think the combination of Medalist click plate plus the "hooked" safety lever ( with the elongated "hole")...might be all you need to get a functioning dry-fire feature. I am not sure about this as there may be yet other parts involved, but a scan of the Browning parts list with schematic seems to indicate this is all we would need.



.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Cramiekske....Thank you for the pictures....usually "big" is no problem, but these are HUGE ! Perhaps there is a way to slightly resize these before posting.
@ISPC. Pictures have been scaled down. The initial HUGE pictures where uploaded directly from my iPad. Did not have the option to reduce them. My Bad :))

My Challenger is broken down to pieces, Have done the same with my International and see if transplanting the safety and other piece give the Challenger any dry fire capabilities. I think I have all the pieces ready for the transplant. Now just need a bit of extra time, and "Murphy" out of the way. :))


PS. On second thought, would a Buckmark in this case not be able to have dry-fire capabilities, they are based on the same original pistols. (Just thinking out of the box)

For those affectionado / interested in these old school pistols. There is a nice 3 episode on old school Browning on YouTube
Links: part 1 - - part 2 - - part 3 -
 
#29 · (Edited)
To go even further...a few years back I bought a parts-kit from a Nomad. I got most all of the gun's internal parts except the frame. Here too...among all the Nomad parts...we find a click plate that is most certainly configured like a Medalist part. In other cases....like the sear spring, it was definately a Nomad sear spring...and not a Challenger or Medalist spring...so I am sure all the parts came from a Nomad. In this picture the click plate is flipped-over, but it is a Medalist type. It is beginning to look like ALL the Belgian Brownings (Nomad, Challenger and Medalist) were fitted with the Medalist click plate. I have yet to see a "Nomad" style !! A few of us forum members have gone offline to discuss and check this point on our own guns...and so far it seems to be true.

 
#31 · (Edited)
@Cramiekske

....thank you so much for the added photos of the parts.....besides the topic we are discussing here, these pictures help me in my latest project bringing a fire-damaged Challenger back to life ! (thank you). By the way....if your corner of the world has a spare slide hold-open lever available someplace, I would appreciate knowing where to get one...thanks.

Thanks also for scaling down the original pics as the resulting text also becomes more manageable and usable by not going off the screen.

I have seen the 3-series Youtube videos you cite... and think (as you do) that these are great films to watch for those of us interested in these guns...for me I found the actual operation of the dry-fire mechanism to be very informative. :bthumb:
 
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