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Old 06-25-2020, 11:25 PM
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I ordered the rest of the parts today for my "Ultimate Training Pistol" build. The first batch of parts, including the reciever, should arrive Saturday and as long as shipping doesn't get delayed it should be ready to shoot by July 4th.

TLDR; Essentially my goal was to have a setup that could accommodate any of my 3 (soon to be 4) kid's sizes and levels of interest as they grow up. I want them all to learn proper firearm safety, and perhaps some of them will enjoy leisurely plinking while one or two of them might really get into it. I decided against a bolt action because I saw no advantages over just single-loading a magazine.

If you're still with me...

Here is a breakdown of my parts/philosophy;
-Tactical Innovations Elite22LC receiver so they can work the bolt without having to support the weight of the gun with an outstretched arm
-TI polished "target match grade" bolt for easy cleaning
-TI 4.5" flueted SS barrel for reduced weight and to keep bulk ammo subsonic
-Ruger BX trigger as to not tire out little fingers but still need somewhat deliberate pressure to fire
-PMACA multi chassis for easy adaptability for various child's sizes and to accept a free float tube
-PMACA short carbon keymod tube to act as a heat shield for the barrel and provide extra mounting area for learning opportunities down the road like shooting with sling support, operating accessories, etc.
-SBA4 brace for easy LOP adjustment
-Tacticool22 6" dummy silencer to ensure the inside of the free float tube doesn't get fouled and as a training aid for using a real deal
-Crimson Trace CTS-103 sight because it looked decent and I was already running over budget
-Ruger BX-15 magazines x2 because they fit the size of the rifle appropriately and can give them experience with magazine swaps/clearing malfunctions

I plan on 3D printing a grip because I really want to optimize it for the kids. The top of the free float tube will need to be inletted for the rail on the reciever since it protrudes a bit. Other than that the only thing I'm worried about is the weight; looks to be about 4 lbs by the time everything is said and done. Worst case I can shave 12.8 oz by removing the dummy silencer and free float tube.

Pics to follow.

Last edited by Trailmaster; 06-27-2020 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailmaster View Post
I ordered the rest of the parts today for my "Ultimate Child Rifle" build. The first batch of parts, including the reciever, should arrive Saturday and as long as shipping doesn't get delayed it should be ready to shoot by July 4th.

TLDR; Essentially my goal was to have a setup that could accommodate any of my 3 (soon to be 4) kid's sizes and levels of interest as they grow up. I want them all to learn proper firearm safety, and perhaps some of them will enjoy leisurely plinking while one or two of them might really get into it. I decided against a bolt action because I saw no advantages over just single-loading a magazine.

If you're still with me...

Here is a breakdown of my parts/philosophy;
-Tactical Innovations Elite22LC receiver so they can work the bolt without having to support the weight of the gun with an outstretched arm
-TI polished "target match grade" bolt for easy cleaning
-TI 4.5" flueted SS barrel for reduced weight and to keep bulk ammo subsonic
-Ruger BX trigger as to not tire out little fingers but still need somewhat deliberate pressure to fire
-PMACA multi chassis for easy adaptability for various child's sizes and to accept a free float tube
-PMACA short carbon keymod tube to act as a heat shield for the barrel and provide extra mounting area for learning opportunities down the road like shooting with sling support, operating accessories, etc.
-SBA4 brace for easy LOP adjustment
-Tacticool22 6" dummy silencer to ensure the inside of the free float tube doesn't get fouled and as a training aid for using a real deal
-Crimson Trace CTS-103 sight because it looked decent and I was already running over budget
-Ruger BX-15 magazines x2 because they fit the size of the rifle appropriately and can give them experience with magazine swaps/clearing malfunctions

I plan on 3D printing a grip because I really want to optimize it for the kids. The top of the free float tube will need to be inletted for the rail on the reciever since it protrudes a bit. Other than that the only thing I'm worried about is the weight; looks to be about 4 lbs by the time everything is said and done. Worst case I can shave 12.8 oz by removing the dummy silencer and free float tube.

Pics to follow.
why are you worried about having a left sided charging handle when they will be doing more than just pulling the handle between shots?

OK, here's why I think teaching a new shooter with an autoloader in general, and a 10/22 in particular, is a bad idea

after taking the first shot and preparing the rifle for the next one .. remember the 10/22 is an autoloader without a last shot hold open, so the bolt will eject the spent casing, cock the hammer and close the bolt on an empty chamber ..so the kid has to remember to engage the safety, then find the magazine release and depress it, dropping the magazine, he/she will be loading a single round into the magazine, then reinserting the magazine, and pulling the charging handle fully to the rear and releasing it to have a safely loaded round in the chamber

for a kid, doing this over and over for every round will get old quick, to the point where they will lose interest

that's just one of the advantages of teaching a kid the basics of safety and how to shoot using a single shot bolt action.. where you open the bolt, lay the round on the loading tray and close the bolt and it's safe till they actually cock it...they don't have to remember to engage a manual safety first, to have a safely loaded firearm in their hands..
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:19 AM
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Totally valid points. Maybe I'll do some of the boring work for them up front and let them run a couple of full mags through. Might help them feel like the juice is worth the squeeze!
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:45 AM
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and I'm waiting to see a pic of this Ultimate Child
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:25 AM
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Got a welcome surprise and stuff showed up a day early! You can't see it but I sanded the shank of the barrel for a perfect fit (which was the first time I had not had a barrel slip right in on a 10/22). Then I cut the free float tube for the picatinny protrusion. Looks like the dummy silencer should protrude 1/2" from the end of the tube, which is what I was hoping. It's all down hill from here!
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:52 AM
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Super nice build you got going! I'm not sure this would be the "best" for a young new shooter. You should keep this one for yourself! A long rifle will be easier to keep pointed downrange.

And, this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by crackedcornish View Post
OK, here's why I think teaching a new shooter with an autoloader in general, and a 10/22 in particular, is a bad idea

after taking the first shot and preparing the rifle for the next one .. remember the 10/22 is an autoloader without a last shot hold open, so the bolt will eject the spent casing, cock the hammer and close the bolt on an empty chamber ..so the kid has to remember to engage the safety, then find the magazine release and depress it, dropping the magazine, he/she will be loading a single round into the magazine, then reinserting the magazine, and pulling the charging handle fully to the rear and releasing it to have a safely loaded round in the chamber

for a kid, doing this over and over for every round will get old quick, to the point where they will lose interest

that's just one of the advantages of teaching a kid the basics of safety and how to shoot using a single shot bolt action.. where you open the bolt, lay the round on the loading tray and close the bolt and it's safe till they actually cock it...they don't have to remember to engage a manual safety first, to have a safely loaded firearm in their hands..
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Old 06-27-2020, 03:08 PM
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Great thing to build something that FITS the young shooters, Dad!
I have great respect for any adult taking the time to teach youngsters to shoot safely.

I taught my older child- my son, on a semi auto like this.
I started my daughter (younger child) on a single shot bolt- first a Crickett, then a CZ452 Scout with Single shot adapter. In the end, my daughter is much more safety conscious with loading and leaving all guns “open and clear”.
It could just be the difference in their personalities, but if I had it to do over again,
I would have started them both on a single shot bolt. It leaves the teacher a lot more time to comment on WHAT we do and WHY between shots.
FWIW, I started both my kids with air rifles in the back yard, and made them MEMORIZE and APPLY a list of safety rules including the NRA rules plus a few of my own. They had to get through several range sessions in the backyard without one mistake before they could earn a range trip to shoot a “real” gun.
My son needs reminding about application of safety rules especially at the beginning of every season, my daughter rarely ever makes any mistakes. I have found that girls are easier to train, they listen carefully to every step, while boys just seem to assume that shooting is a “boy thing” and they will be good at it without trying.



Here is a list of the safety rules that I impart to my children and every shooter that I teach:

GUN SAFETY RULES

1) Never touch a gun without permission.

2) Never point a gun
at anyone- always keep it pointed in a safe direction.

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you're in a safe place to shoot and ready to shoot.

4) Never load a gun until you are at the range and ready to shoot.

5) Never leave a loaded gun unattended. Always clear the action, check the bolt face and breech, and leave the action open when you set a gun down at the range.

6) Always treat every gun as if it's loaded at all times.

7) CHECK your action. Never take someone's word that a gun isn't loaded.

8) Know your target and what is behind it.

9) Know your firearm and how to safely operate it and it's features.

10) Always use proper eye and ear protection.


Hope this helps-

DrGunner
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SCIENTIA EST POTENTIA
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Old 06-27-2020, 04:30 PM
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Thanks for the input so far! I have a couple of 452's, I suppose I could always start them on those even if the handling would be a little more awkward (I have an American and a Lux). Me and my 5 brothers all learned on 10/22s so maybe I'm a little biased or blind to the advantages of starting on a bolt action.

I guess in my mind the concept of the build wasn't that it was necessarily the best for a particular type or phase of training, but that it would be flexible enough to teach almost every skill and be able to switch quickly and comfortably between different sizes of children.

I think of it as learning on an automatic vs manual transmission. An automatic is undoubtedly easier (and safer) to learn on, but can't really teach you all of the things a manual can. Luckily most of the time (with guns or cars) people don't have to choose only one or the other. I'll see how it goes with the 10/22 and if I notice any dangerous behavior that would be mitigated by using a bolt action I'll switch to the 452 until the fundamentals have been mastered.
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Old 06-27-2020, 05:47 PM
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TrailMaster.


That is really good looking so far. Can’t wait to see how it looks when it’s all done.

I have tried a bunch of different guns when teaching my kids to shoot and I have found they love shooting the semi autos more than the bolt actions.

I’ve got my oldest with a ruger precision rimfire and adjusted it to fit him, but he really loves my AR15 POF rebel 22 pistol (similar in size and weight to what you’re building)


https://pof-usa.com/firearms/rebel-22/

Any reason you didn’t go with a pistol barrel from Kidd?

Or a LW pistol from volquartsen or Clint Beyer to further cut down weight?


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Old 06-27-2020, 07:50 PM
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That Rebel looks awesome Frank! I might have been tempted had I known it existed, but I really like the modularity and availability of 10/22 parts. As far as the barrel goes, the Tactical Innovations barrel is pretty light at 5.3oz. They were the only ones I was aware of that had a 4.5" as an off the shelf item. I could have had a Kidd 6" cut down and I'm sure it would have been a better barrel, but I think it would have weighed more and been pretty pricey.
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailmaster View Post
That Rebel looks awesome Frank! I might have been tempted had I known it existed, but I really like the modularity and availability of 10/22 parts. As far as the barrel goes, the Tactical Innovations barrel is pretty light at 5.3oz. They were the only ones I was aware of that had a 4.5" as an off the shelf item. I could have had a Kidd 6" cut down and I'm sure it would have been a better barrel, but I think it would have weighed more and been pretty pricey.
I am interested to see how it shoots. When I bought my TacInc left hand charging upper the guy I talked to tried to convince me to buy a barrel from them but I was dead set on a Kidd barrel. He claimed TacInc barrels shot as good as any out there but I haven’t seen any reports from them yet.

Are you going to put an arm brace on it or leave it like it is? If you do look at them the SBA-3 is quite nice but a blade is probably the lightest
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Old 06-28-2020, 03:08 PM
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SBA4. I thought about the blade style but I figured the weight of the SBA4 would help balance it a little better, not to mention be more comfortable.
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:29 PM
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Nice.

Do you find the sba-4 more comfortable than the Sba-3?


Btw how smooth is the bolt?

I got the blackened bolt (nitrided I think) and it’s not as smooth as what I want. Thinking about doing a charger build like yours and either going with the polished bolt or a kidd bolt.


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Old 07-01-2020, 09:07 PM
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I haven't used an SBA3 but the 4 feels absolutely amazing. The polished bolt is very, very smooth. You have to be careful not to put scratches in it. Its feels really slick in the reciever, which I was worried it wouldn't because of the texture of the anodizing.

Here is another quick pic with the stuff that came in today, I'll take some glamour shots when the mags come in on Monday. The 3D printed grip isn't ready yet so I tossed the Houge on. Loving how it turned out!
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Old Yesterday, 05:28 PM
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I went shooting today and put 100 or so rounds through it. It ran extremely well with 4 different types of ammo, and the 4.5" barrel kept all but the Stingers subsonic. So as far as the functionality is concerned I'm very pleased!

I didn't really know what to expect in the accuracy department, but all 4 were right about 2" at 20 yards for 5 shots. This was in a windy field with a 4 moa red dot and semi rapid fire, so I'm hoping for an improvement with better conditions. The thing that concerned me the most was the irregularity of it-- on occasion one group to the next with the same ammo would yield under an inch then over 3", then back to 2" for a few groups in a row. I'll try to make it to an indoor range at some point for serious testing, but for now I guess its good enough for plinking steel.
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