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  #1  
Old 01-11-2021, 02:37 AM
hockeyref
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I'm breaking this out into my own thread:

I may be stirring the pot here a bit so help me out.
I'm trying to keep an open mind about the NRL22 rules and classes and trying to talk myself into offering actual NRL22 matches. I have a 100 yard and a 500 yard range available. Maybe I'm just a grumpy old match director, but I keep getting stuck on the thought of trying to enforce the classes and my disagreement with the thought that basic class is entry level and veteran shooters should NOT remain there. My interpretation of the wording is that veterans are basically expected but not forced to move into open.

Now I get that the purpose of NRL22 is truly to be a baby version of full bore ELR shooting. Why not drop the classes and simply list excluded equipment and just tell folks to come out and shoot for fun with what they have (and decide how seriously they want to take it)? Or better yet, have Sporter and open class cuz many might want to shoot at the ragged edge of their varmint rig - that maybe was their dad's rifle, that has been out of production for decades, but will stop well short of dropping multiple thousands of dollars on a new rig.

As a match director, the way I see it is if your gonna spend the money to run sanctioned matches and turn in scores then you are gonna need to pay attention to the letter of the rules 'cuz you will have some shooters that are VERY serious about it. There will be range lawyers and rules gamers - fact of life, just ask any competitive shooter regardless of discipline. If a match director is not totally immersed in the minutiae of new gear how would they determine the class of a rifle - base vs open - short of keeping lists and catalogues on file to add up costs? Most shooters won't care, but some will care a bunch especially if they want to shoot the national championship. Or do you just use a "looks like a duck" standard cuz you don't know what a given rifle or optic combo costs or whether it's still in production.

Just off the top of my head I can think of an easier way to differentiate base from open:
First forget about if it's still in production as you want as many shooters as possible to WANT to try it out and human nature will make most skip it if they have to run their Pinto against the jet cars just because it hasn't been made in 40 years!

Second just say that an Open rig has any one of these attributes present:
- Trigger pull lighter than 3 pounds - just picked the figure cuz it's attainable with most triggers, but is not lawyer lever heavy
- Barrel profile heavier than #4 heavy sporter weight - specify an allowance for Ruger factory 1022 & precision RF barrel dimensions. Note that I just picked this profile as it seemed like a good compromise for bolt guns.
- NON OEM profile replacement stock.
- Barrel has any muzzle attachment except for a thread cap (this covers breaks, cans, flash hiders, etc)
- Any type of barrel tuner (except for the rubber\elastic Limbsaver style tuner which should specifically be allowed in base)
- Any weights or devices attached externally to the rifle, stock, sling, or bipod. Add on level not allowed, range\dope holder card specifically excepted)
- (Maybe) max weight threshold of 8 pounds for basic
- (Maybe) max scope magnification for basic 10x? 20x? undecided what makes sense here.

Am I over thinking this? Have I been stuck in my house too long and need to get some "recoil therapy"? Or should I just step out on my porch and yell get off my lawn?

Last edited by hockeyref; 01-11-2021 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 01-11-2021, 05:23 AM
StanHi

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IMO, if you are planning to have official, sanctioned matches, your thoughtful planning and considerations might be appropriate. But if you are planning for official NRL matches, you don't get to make up your own rules, do you? You must use their rules. You complaints/concerns should be voiced to the NRL22 officers.

At the matches I attend the match director lets everybody shoot together- there are no equipment or experience considerations. We use the NRL22 course of fire as a tool- not a requirement. As far as I know, the scores are not submitted to NRL22. And nobody cares. We are all there just for fun.

I'd advise you to hold an unofficial match- initially. Then you can decide how to proceed. And YES, I believe you could be overthinking all of this. But many time it takes people like you to make stuff happen. You sound like the type who will 'step-up' when other will not. Thanks for that.
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Old 01-11-2021, 06:16 AM
Magnum357

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyref View Post
I'm breaking this out into my own thread:

I may be stirring the pot here a bit so help me out.
I'm trying to keep an open mind about the NRL22 rules and classes and trying to talk myself into offering actual NRL22 matches. I have a 100 yard and a 500 yard range available. Maybe I'm just a grumpy old match director, but I keep getting stuck on the thought of trying to enforce the classes and my disagreement with the thought that basic class is entry level and veteran shooters should NOT remain there. My interpretation of the wording is that veterans are basically expected but not forced to move into open.

Now I get that the purpose of NRL22 is truly to be a baby version of full bore ELR shooting. Why not drop the classes and simply list excluded equipment and just tell folks to come out and shoot for fun with what they have (and decide how seriously they want to take it)? Or better yet, have Sporter and open class cuz many might want to shoot at the ragged edge of their varmint rig - that maybe was their dad's rifle, that has been out of production for decades, but will stop well short of dropping multiple thousands of dollars on a new rig.

As a match director, the way I see it is if your gonna spend the money to run sanctioned matches and turn in scores then you are gonna need to pay attention to the letter of the rules 'cuz you will have some shooters that are VERY serious about it. There will be range lawyers and rules gamers - fact of life, just ask any competitive shooter regardless of discipline. If a match director is not totally immersed in the minutiae of new gear how would they determine the class of a rifle - base vs open - short of keeping lists and catalogues on file to add up costs? Most shooters won't care, but some will care a bunch especially if they want to shoot the national championship. Or do you just use a "looks like a duck" standard cuz you don't know what a given rifle or optic combo costs or whether it's still in production.

Just off the top of my head I can think of an easier way to differentiate base from open:
First forget about if it's still in production as you want as many shooters as possible to WANT to try it out and human nature will make most skip it if they have to run their Pinto against the jet cars just because it hasn't been made in 40 years!

Second just say that an Open rig has any one of these attributes present:
- Trigger pull lighter than 3 pounds - just picked the figure cuz it's attainable with most triggers, but is not lawyer lever heavy
- Barrel profile heavier than #4 heavy sporter weight - specify an allowance for Ruger factory 1022 & precision RF barrel dimensions. Note that I just picked this profile as it seemed like a good compromise for bolt guns.
- NON OEM profile replacement stock.
- Barrel has any muzzle attachment except for a thread cap (this covers breaks, cans, flash hiders, etc)
- Any type of barrel tuner (except for the rubber\elastic Limbsaver style tuner which should specifically be allowed in base)
- Any weights or devices attached externally to the rifle, stock, sling, or bipod. Add on level not allowed, range\dope holder card specifically excepted)
- (Maybe) max weight threshold of 8 pounds for basic
- (Maybe) max scope magnification for basic 10x? 20x? undecided what makes sense here.

Am I over thinking this? Have I been stuck in my house too long and need to get some "recoil therapy"? Or should I just step out on my porch and yell get off my lawn?
You’re list sounds closer to CMP Rimfire Sporter than it does NRL22.
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Old 01-11-2021, 09:54 AM
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The guys I've started shooting NRL22 with here in N. TX run the monthly COF but they don't worry about classes and submitting scores etc. They may start submitting scores at some point but for now it's more about having fun and learning than anything. I'm absolutely fine with that. I'm just happy to have a place to shoot a match like this. Someday I hope to get good enough that having my scores submitted might matter to me. I'll have to improve quite a bit before that happens haha
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Old 01-11-2021, 12:58 PM
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I think you may be over thinking this. The rules that are in place have worked this whole time. As far as making sure rifles are classified correctly, it's more of the honor system. I mean swapping a trigger will probably go unnoticed, but if it's found out, you bet everyone will know. Its like the couple of guys who cheated at the PRS/NRL centerfire matches, they got blacklisted for 1 year from even shagging brass at a match. I like to believe that most people are honorable. As far as classes, yea its important to break them down. They can easily compare their progress with others using similar equipment.
If you have access to 500, then you can also put on bonus stages in addition to the NRL22 stages. One of the clubs I shoot with does this, 3 bonus stages with targets from 25-340 yards, its a fun challenge.
Just my .02

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Old 01-11-2021, 01:36 PM
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My 2 cents- you're not overthinking this, but there is no good solution so long as you intend to run a santioned NRL match.

Your experience as a match director shows- without question some competitors will be more serious than others, and you will have the equipment game. Likewise you will have some who will not play or can't afford the equipment game, and some of those will be turned off, because they think they can't compete with high dollar rigs, or whatever their individual motivation is.

No way around it. Period. You can make your own rules and have a similar but non-NRL match, or you have to deal with the items you mentioned. For a recent "big time" analogy, just look at what's happened with IDPA in recent years... rules-rules-rules.... rules that make problems, rules to avoid problems, rules to mitigate problems because of other rules....

The nature of competitors does not change regardless whether it's shooting or any other sport.
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Old 01-11-2021, 05:09 PM
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Magnum is right as your wishlist sounds very similar to cmp rimfire match ruleset. And that ruleset is extremely hard to qualify for with today’s popular rimfire choices in both rifle and glass with the tactical crowd. Modern scopes with FFP typically weigh a lot more than a 1” gloss leupold 2-7x and barrel profiles push most nrl/prs rigs to at least 9lbs with most being 10.5+ Pounds. Rules need to be updated to keep up with the times

With that said the rules are what they are if you want to run a nationally ranked match with NRL. Same with ARA, gotta stay in their ruleset for classification. That is why I quit being a match director for a nationally ranked system as I got tired of playing equipment cop and telling people you cant play because your gun is 2 ounces too heavy, the wrong color and cost $20 more than the class limit. Literally I was having to tell people that their rifle is $20 over the MSRP limit. That is a great way to get people involved They say ok and walk away and we just lost a potential shooting member because of a well intentioned but dumb rule.

Another reason I did not go with NRL is that they have a set of published rules on the websight, but have a different facebook page with “more rules not posted on the website” . Ok, which is correct? Your published ruleset or the facebook page? Since I could not get a straight answer on this I gave up on a NRL match set up. You can research this on the web yourself by searching for NRL22 arca plate bag controversy.

Bottom line is do you want to run a conforming nationally ranked match or just a local match? Essentially all you are doing is paying a national entity for score book keeping with all the paperwork you have to do first to certify it. So you have to do a benefit vs cost analysis to see if it works for you and your members.
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Old 01-12-2021, 08:10 PM
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I've added an unofficial class for nonconforming equipment called "Just for fun" Not eligible for any awards, but the club gets the entry fee and the shooter gets to play.
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Old 01-14-2021, 05:42 AM
hockeyref
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@Magnum357 - Never shot CMP RF Sporter, never saw a match, and I barely looked at the rules for it one time. The only reason I did was because a junior named Lucas that shot some of my high power matches a bunch of years ago was pretty good at it. He went to nationals and finished really, really, really, really, really high in the standings.

@WolfShoon - So not only do they have some nonsensical but well meaning rules, but they have already started the treadmill on the alternate locations\channels for rules interpretations, and secret emails? Uhhh yeah, no thanks! Besides, the price seems pretty steep for what they actually offer to both clubs and shooters. The again, if you can afford to run a custom or a VuDoo with a several thousand dollar scope and feed it top shelf RF ammo you aren't worried about cost.

I took a look at the NRLX rule set and they are much simpler..... basically no classes, just shoot.... But no.... This is a precision rifle match, not USPSA or 3 gun.... scores based on a percentage of the top shooters score? Too %%%% much math. Give 'em points for what they hit and bonus\penalty points on some of the stages for saved or excess time with respect to par. Most points wins.

For me, Outlaw\fun match sounds more like the way to go. I'll throw together a couple stages to see what you all think.
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Old Today, 12:58 AM
hockeyref
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So would you shoot this match:

Admittedly, the target sizes may need be adjusted. I based sizing on the NRA 200 yard RF target that has a 2" x-ring and 4" 10 ring. Target sizes may need to be adjusted larger due to ammo limitations.

Stage 1 - Panic and Precision - short range
Distance 50 yards
100 pts plus time bonuses
Supported prone - sling\bipod\front bag allowed - Butt of rifle may not touch ground while firing. beanbag\monopod\rear rest not permitted.
10 shots for score (One shot per each outer bull) on an NRA A17 target (10 spot 50 foot target) with a par time 50 seconds. Shooter fires until all 10 shots have been fired regardless of time.
Max points available on target = 100
Bonus points - addition of .5 point for every second left on the timer after 10th shot
Penalty deduction - loss of .5 point for every second after the 50 second mark until string is complete

Stage 2 - Risk\Reward
Distance 100 yards
125 points max
Time limit 120 seconds
Prop - roof top supported. Sling and One bag rest or bean bag allowed that may be attached to the rifle, but if attached it must remain attached in same position for all 3 strings.

Three 5 shot strings fired on Know Your Limit rack - total time allowed 120 seconds. Start is 5 feet from prop all equipment in hand. Required order of fire - strings fired from supported position on roof top in the following order 1)Top middle, 2)lower left corner, 2)lower right corner. All equipment must be attached to rifle or kept in hand for the entire series of 15 shots.

Shooter may fire at any of targets at any time. Shooter is NOT required to engage all target, but must call each intended target before shooting to alert spotter. Shooter may opt to fire all 5 shots at the same target.
Hit values
.25″ - 25 points per hit
.5″ - 20 points per hit
.75″ - 15 points per hit
1″ - 10 points per hit
NO TIME BONUS OR PENALTY, only maximum allowed time limit


Stage 3: Step up your game
60 points plus shooters choice, max 160 points
10 shots
Time limit of 120 seconds

100 yard - 1" circle
150 yard - 2" circle
200 yard - 3" circle
250 yard - 4" circle
350 yard challenge only - 2" circle

Targets engaged closest to farthest in order with two shots at each. The two remaining shots are shooters choice at any of the first 4 targets OR the challenge target. Shooter must call each shooters choice target before firing a shot at it.
Shot value:
100 yard: 3pts 1st shot, 2pts 2nd shot, 6 pts for shooters choice
150 yard: 5pts 1st shot, 4pts 2nd shot, 10 pts for shooters choice
200 yard: 10pts 1st shot, 8pts 2nd shot, 20 pts for shooters choice
250 yard: 15pts 1st shot, 13pts 2nd shot, 30 pts for shooters choice
350 yard: Available ONLY for the two shooters choice shots 50 pts per shot


Stage 4: King of the quarter mile
5 attempted shots per distance, must impact to move on to next distance
Time Maximum 300 seconds
100 points max, 25 Points per distance completed

125 yards - 1" circle
275 yards - 3" circle
325 yards - 5" circle
440 yards - 6" circle

Stage 5: The gambler - hero or zero
200 points max for gamble 100 points to step through all targets
Targetes at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 yards
Shooter may take one shot per target in 75 seconds or gamble on one single shot at 500 for 2x total possible point value.
20 points per impact or 200 pts for 500 yard single shot gamble.
100 yard - 1" circle
200 yard - 2" circle
300 yard - 3" circle
400 yard - 4" circle
500 Yard - 8" circle

Stage 6: Panic and Precision - know your dope
120 pts (10 for 100 yard and 110 for all X's at 200)
Distance 100 & 200 yards
Time limit of 90 seconds
11 shots total, must hit 100 yard target before moving to 200 yard target
Fully Supported prone - sling\bipod\front bag allowed rear beanbag\rear rest permitted.
One impact on 2" 100 yard target before engaging an NRA A21 200 yard RF target with up to 10 shots for score (x's scored as 11 pts).

Last edited by hockeyref; Today at 01:05 AM. Reason: spelling sucks
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