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  #1  
Old 06-02-2017, 10:39 PM
dryholer
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D-rock tool Question,,



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Im hollow pointing some shells,Im using a D-rock tool/dye,Im using diff types of ammo,some subsonic some high vel, the question is by driving or using a press to make a hollow point by compression energy, will this make the lead in the bullet more dense? it shouldnt change its critical weight points i think, but what about making the bullet harder by displacing the volume of the hollow into the sides?
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:56 PM
robs9
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In another question. By doing that does it seat the bullet too deep? And cause other problems, like failure to seat or feed correctly. Maybe some kind of over pressures?
Why if you want HPs drill them out without pushing on the bullett or just buy them?

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Old 06-02-2017, 11:34 PM
wkd
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lead does not work harden, it gets softer.
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  #4  
Old 06-02-2017, 11:48 PM
c2shync
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Can't speak for D Rock but my tool is very similar and works in my RCBS Rock Chucker.
My tool can make long deep hp's of more shallow large opening hp's. The tool does not compress the lead but rather separates/pushes it outward thus making or enlarging an existing hole.
There is a EPS type (dimpled flat top like Eley) tip that does in fact press downward to flatten an existing round nose bullet. Some say that will increase accuracy. I do not use it very much but it makes beautiful round holes in paper when shot.
Anyone can use any tool to misshapen a projectile to the point that it will not even chamber but you have to be intending to create a problem for there to be one.
My hollow points shoot great!! Especially impressive is the Gemtech 42 grain with large opening hp's. fd
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Old 06-02-2017, 11:55 PM
dryholer
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Gem-tech is one of the brands im tweeking! im making a large hollow point an iv not shot it at paper yet but at 45yd puts a big hole in a squirrels head with a loud thwack!
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robs9 View Post
In another question. By doing that does it seat the bullet too deep? And cause other problems, like failure to seat or feed correctly. Maybe some kind of over pressures?
Why if you want HPs drill them out without pushing on the bullett or just buy them?

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I don't have any of the hollow point making tools, but I have messed with the rounds quite a bit. You'd have to exert a lot of force to actually push the bullet into the case any. This isn't a jacketed bullet that fits inside the case mouth. The bullet is the same diameter as the case. Also the bullet is lead. I don't think it would be possible to deform it enough to cause pressure issues, and still have it chamber.

Drilling them out reduces weight, which reduces downrange energy. Not what you want for hunting ammo. Also unless you are really anal the holes most likely won't be consistently perfectly centered which will effect accuracy. As far as buying them, hollowpoints of any variety are primarily considered hunting rounds. They generally don't go through the same level of QC that even lower end target ammo does. Thus they aren't as consistent. These tools (there are several different ones) allow you to take whatever ammo your gun shoots well, and make hollow points out of it.
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:57 AM
robs9
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Have never needed to change them I quess.

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Old 06-03-2017, 01:16 AM
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Have never needed to change them I quess.

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Me either personally, but I can see the reasoning behind it. I only take head shots squirrel hunting, so round nose or hollow point makes no difference. Most people aren't like that though, and if I took body shots I'd want a hollow point on the most accurate ammo possible too.
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Old 06-03-2017, 01:16 AM
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FYI, if you didn't see, D-rock(Derrick) passed away recently. Be happy you have one of his tools.
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Old 06-03-2017, 03:32 AM
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DRock tools

I spent a fair amount of time a few years ago on the phone and via email with Derek and he was a class act.

A few years ago, 2010, seven shooting buddies and I spent 7 months testing the 3 most common .22 non-magnum rimfire resizers under the strictest control we could manage. They were the Waltz, DRock and Paco.

I have my own ranges.

All of the weapons were stock, just as they come from the factory, and had at least 1,000 rounds through them. The weapons chosen for the testing were not target rifles or pistols although we did mess with a few of those just to see the results.

The goal was to test what the average shooter would be using from both a weapon and ammo standpoint.

The range was 50 yards for pistols and 100 yards for rifles regardless of sights.

We spent a tad over 3 months prepping for this testing which included talking to and emailing the major folks that made and tested that type of ammo.

Testing was for 20 different weapons, rifles and pistols, and 5 brands of bulk ammo consuming roughly 8,000 rounds of record about the same for groups that were quarantined for a variety of reasons. Testing was done primarily for accuracy increases or decreases, concentricity, and bullet weight, hardness, chamber and bore casts etc. using a variety of different measuring tools including some lab equipment like laser measuring for bullet diameters and lab quality electronic scales.

There is a sticky on the results of that testing.

In reference to some of the statements in this thread:

1. .22 non-magnum rimfire lead bullets, just like any other cast bullet, centers on the driving bands, not the nose ogive that jacketed bullets do. The fit of those driving bands to the chamber or throat, whatever you want to call it can have a dramatic effect on accuracy whether it be good or bad.



Larger pic with larger cast bullets but shows the resized driving bands and how the lube fills them. Fundamentally the same for the .22 non magnum rimfire cartridge.



2. The Waltz and DRock dies are single dimensional diameter dies whereas the Paco are multi-dimensional. With the Waltz and DRock if you get an accuracy increase or decrease it simply means that that diameter fits the weapon better or worse and if better just is coincidental....not by design. They do not advertise accuracy improvements as a root result of the dies but rather the creation of a better hunting bullet.

3. With the Paco tool(s) you can test, depending on how many sizing dies you order, up to 6 different bullet diameters and in the majority of cases can find an improvement in accuracy where the fit of the driving bands match the chamber/throat.

He, Paco, does advertise accuracy improvement as a root result of his dies and they are patented by the way.

Any time that you remove metal from a bullet, regardless of whether it be cast or jacketed you alter 1, if not all of the critical points which are the longitudinal axis, center of pressure and center of gravity which in most cases adversely affects the design and performance of the bullet. At shorter ranges such as 25 or 50 yards this may not be noticeable.

If you simply reform the nose and the driving bands when you do that then you do not remove metal so those critical areas are not changed enough to matter.

You will get a bullet that is rounder and more consistent, diameter wise.

With the Waltz and DRock tools you can drive the bullet deeper into the case when reforming, creating a thin "skirt" of lead around the crimp area if you set the depth of the die too deep. Easy to do as the mechanical advantage of presses rob you of the "feel" on doing too much, or not enough for that matter.

With the Paco tool, you can do that also but much harder to do if you follow the instructions even loosely. Gotta work at it.

When you resize the bullets you do change the density of them and to a very small degree how hard they are. Virtually immeasurable without lab equipment as are the results relative to pressure curves, chamber pressure and muzzle velocity, Insignificant from a practical standpoint.

Since then, 2010, the folks that contributed, and a few other shooting buddies that bought resizing dies have resized about 75,000 rounds which included, and still does, actual results on small game. Between us we have over 700 acres to hunt in anytime we want and a lot of small game including squirrels and rabbits.

Looking at the various nose shapes ala:



The best results, which is not in the least bit surprising for accuracy were the flat metplat or semi-wadcutters. (Far right) That nose shape has proven itself over hundreds of years for accuracy.

The best results from actual hunting were that nose shape for thicker skinned game including turtles or game that you want to preserve as much meat as you can, were again the flat metplat or semi-wadcutters.

Penetration was good even on armadillo's and a coyote or two, albeit that was at close range, like 30 yards.

The best results, if you want expansion, were the cupped nose (center). Expansion like on squirrels with a central mass hit often left only "stew pot" meat left.

Good for stuff like crows or black birds etc. if you just want to kill em.

Expansion of "store bought" hollow points was pretty effective if you wanted more "filets of squirrels" and were taking body shots but we kinda shy away from those unless the hollow point store bought rounds are priced attractively enough for use to buy them.

Regardless of what tooling you chose, you will not make target ammo from bulk and will not increase the accuracy of target ammo. What you can do though is get close with the bulk stuff which gives you a lot cheaper ammo to practice and hunt with.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 08-01-2017 at 02:31 AM.
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  #11  
Old 06-03-2017, 09:55 AM
dryholer
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Thank you Noremf, very helpful info,To explain a little further, I dont shoot alot of groups,enough to keep my skill set somwhat where i want it to be, after all it is a perishable skill set, I AM interested in terminal damage results an wound channels, growing up I used what ever ammo was availible, RN,HP it didnt make a diff to me, (but as a child i played childerens game), its been said if you shoot heads wat diff is there? to which i say WORLDS,, the difference is gargantuan,If you are a student of the game! I hunt! I hunt alot! I do take only head shots,will NOT shoot into the body, an am pretty good at it,not as good as some here but ahead of the curve, However, you can never be too good to improve your game, skills or tools , presicion is everything of course,in both worlds its the measuring stick, however terminal damage is what im after,yall dont get me wrong, I shoot 3/8" at 50yds with several diff rifles an several diff ammo, I can put it where it should be but when it gets there id like better results than what is common place, Thanx again noremf, your posts and explainations are great
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:30 AM
Bill Hoffman

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Solids cannot be compressed. Basic law of physics.
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2017, 09:02 AM
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Lead alloy cast bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hoffman View Post
Solids cannot be compressed. Basic law of physics.
.22 non-rimfire lead bullets are not 100% lead and there are molecular voids between the lead and whatever "hardening" metal, such as tin or antimony, that is added. Sometimes referred to as dispersion hardening.

Because of that, they are not considered a true solid.

Microscopic pictures of pure lead on the left and alloyed lead on the right.



You can see the voids.

I ran a company that made induction heating equipment. Some of the equipment we made was to create alloys of a variety of materials including lead alloys.

The picture here was taken from a slice of the lead alloy used by a major manufacturer of .22 lr non-magnum rimfire rounds.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 08-01-2017 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hoffman View Post
Solids cannot be compressed. Basic law of physics.
The oft unmentioned or unsaid corollary to that is that nothing we humans experience is truly solid (I'll leave Black Hole discussions for some other thread). I used to work in ultra high vacuum. Using a Mass Spectrometer tuned to detect helium I have seen helium go directly through a .750" thick piece of 316 Stainless Steel. It doesn't happen fast and it doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.

That is esoteric to this discussion. What is pertinent is to realize that metals can be fluid with enough force. They don't have to be heated to their liquid state for them to flow in a fluid-like fashion. Forging is based on this. These re-shaping tools are essentially forging to bullets to the new shape. In steels and aluminum alloys this leads to a more refined gain structure that flows smoothly thru the new shape. In lead I've no idea. I do know that in centerfire lead bullet shooting that there is a contingent who favor swaged (forged) lead bullets over cast lead bullets, but I am not familiar with their reasons.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:42 PM
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Swaged vs Cast lead bullets

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Originally Posted by ntsqd View Post
The oft unmentioned or unsaid corollary to that is that nothing we humans experience is truly solid (I'll leave Black Hole discussions for some other thread). I used to work in ultra high vacuum. Using a Mass Spectrometer tuned to detect helium I have seen helium go directly through a .750" thick piece of 316 Stainless Steel. It doesn't happen fast and it doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.

That is esoteric to this discussion. What is pertinent is to realize that metals can be fluid with enough force. They don't have to be heated to their liquid state for them to flow in a fluid-like fashion. Forging is based on this. These re-shaping tools are essentially forging to bullets to the new shape. In steels and aluminum alloys this leads to a more refined gain structure that flows smoothly thru the new shape. In lead I've no idea. I do know that in centerfire lead bullet shooting that there is a contingent who favor swaged (forged) lead bullets over cast lead bullets, but I am not familiar with their reasons.
If you are buying them skip to the end when you see that note in blue. If you are making them yourself then read on.

Cast all my bullets and have done so since 1967 and I shot benchrest, IHMSA and black powder long range, 600M since then with a variety of weapons. Even have done a tad at 1,000 yards at Perry. Not that means anything.

The "belief" of the folks that favor swaged lead bullets is that they are more consistent and leave no voids. True if you are using a bullet alloy "wire" and have the tools to cut it off to the same dimensions time after time after time and then swage those "bullet blanks".

Also swaged bullets don't introduce any heat when forming so there is no chance for the disparate metals to separate.....unless you let the dies heat up, which they will so you have to keep them cool, like less then 125F.

The base of the bullets, which is a critical factor, not the nose, will be nice and "sharp" using a swaging process....but (see below)

Both are easy to do with precision equipment though and once the wire is checked you can zoom right along.

Tough for a DIY guy/gal to do. With some of the alloys you need a "Paul Bunyon" press to do it. Mucho dinero for that alone.

If you are buying them then skip the next part highlighted in blue.

If you are using say ingots, whether or not you cast short lengths of wire or bullet blanks you still stand the chance of introducing voids or uneven density areas in them so swaging gets you nothing unless you are really good at casting in which case there is no practical difference quality wise between casting the bullet then sizing it vs just making it via the swaging process.

The base "sharpness" only applies to "base" pour molds. If you use a nose pour mold, which experienced bullet castors use, then you can, again if you are careful, easily duplicate the "sharpness".

In many designs there is a gas check required which makes the bases just as perfect as if the bullet were swaged. Does take an extra step though.

In both cases, since you are the quality control you inspect the bullets and if the base is not filled out completely then you reject the bullet. If that happens with a swaged bullet, you either throw it away or melt it down. If that happens with a cast bullet you simply return it to the pot and continue casting.

Another factor is that with cast bullets you can alter the final hardness in a variety of ways because of the high heat. Cannot do that with swaged bullets cause they are cast cold.

There are folks out there that can cast bullets that will run with any swaged ones though. Takes experience and more to the point patience and dedication to quality control.

Much easier to buy swaged bullets then get the equipment and gain the experience to cast bullets that will equal them from an accuracy performance standpoint. IMO and IME that is a major factor. Many folks will simply spend the money on the bullets.

The differences are basically esoteric, just like you mention in your helium reference.

In my opinion and experience, and again I repeat in my opinion and experience, anything that increases the confidence level of the load is worth a whole bunch.

Using a swaged lead alloy bullet generates a mental image that they are more accurate, even though in a particular weapon they might not be, and that mental image creates confidence.


I submit that you would be hard pressed to determine from the results which bullets were cast and which bullets were swaged assuming you were using high quality cast ones.

noremf(George)

PS: Many of the long range records using cast bullets are still around, and some cases are close to 100 years old.

Last edited by noremf; 06-04-2017 at 07:03 PM.
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