What Makes a Deer Round? Weight, Speed , and Velosity - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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  #1  
Old 01-19-2004, 09:12 PM
badredfish

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What Makes a Deer Round? Weight, Speed , and Velosity



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Ok, what makes a round good for deer??

I know that a 223 is not a quote "deer" round (good enouft for the world armys, but not for deer.

The 243 with a 100 grains is good, the 30-30 with it's slower 150 or 170 grains I know will do the job well.

what is the smallest lightest recoiling "deer" Round?

Thanks,

Badredfish
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  #2  
Old 01-19-2004, 09:17 PM
Stealth Monkey

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smallest? .243 wssm i would go with the .243 for the "deafult" lowest round for deer. Its accurate, fast, has the heavy bullets, and the knock down power and penetration.
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:56 PM
James in OH

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One buckeyes opinion:
Well here in OH it is shotgun slugs,muzzleloader,or straight walled pistol of .38 or bigger.That being said,I consider .243 borderline sized for deer.A .22lr will kill a deer if put thru the heart,but in real world hunting it would be fullish to rely on it.Bullets kill by shock power.If you hit a deer a little too far back,or high etc. and a .243 is not going to do the job quickly enough for me.A .270 or bigger is a lot more forgiving.BTW Im not saying that a lot of deer haven't been killed by .243s.BUT= when you are shooting offhand,thru woods,up and down ravines, and from uncomfortable positions a little cushion goes a long ways!James
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  #4  
Old 01-19-2004, 11:14 PM
varmastr

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257 wby with 100gr barnes X, zzzzzoooommmmin'

to answer your question smallest deer round, whatever is legal in your area. Here it is .23 cal minimum. Try not to dwell on the recoil thing, adrenaline will take care of that!!!
personally, I crave velocity. velocity gives me trajectory, tragectory equals accuracy, accuracy is good!! velocity brings shock power. Premium projectiles are paramount.
16" antelope and a 42" moose in 03, 120# wolf and 26" mulie in 02, one shot each. Nothing gets up to leave a blood trail...
im kinda leaning towards the 25-06 as minimum.
but for most deer situations its 300 yds or less and drift really isnt a factor on a 250-400 lb deer when the sweet spot is the size of a picnic cooler.
be safe, and cost effective follow James in OH advice, step into a 270, good for almost everything your likely to encounter.
Good luck and good hunting.
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Old 01-20-2004, 12:12 AM
Elkein

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The 5.56 nato may be limited in it's expected lifespan. So the "military uses it must be good enough" may go out the window before too long- as it should. My recommendation is the 243win, or better the .25's even if they are a bit slower version. The bullets used do make a difference. Other issues can be considered overkill, really big and fast can take a deer apart. experience: I've shot a few deer with 30/30's they generally do okay, a few fall in place, about half run and keel over within eighty yards or so. The .270win is my personal preferred deer round, the original wildcat, in factory form is a fine cartridge for anchoring deer. I regularly use a larger gun out of my permanent stands anymore though. Last season was four shots for four deer, a record for one shot kills for me in a season, as it should be... I've been bragging on my m77 being in it's best shape ever this year. pre-season sight check consisted of three bullseye shots at 200 yards, back into the safe till season it waited. For my greater deer hunt in Colorado I fired two shots on my elk this year, one standing second running(they both connected), the bull stopped and dropped after 60 yards after considering his plight.
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  #6  
Old 01-20-2004, 05:35 AM
BigMike

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What Makes a Deer Round?

badredfish,

Well, if you were to believe the 'olde sages' of hunting and shooting, like Col. J. Crossman, Col. T. Whelen, Jack O'Connor and Clyde Ormond, it is 1,000 foot pounds of energy at the target [game]...! !

If you look at the rounds that meet or exceed this rule, you can see why: .243 Win, 6mm Rem, .250/3000 Sav., .257 Roberts, .25/06 Rem, .270 Win, 7x57mm, .280 Rem, .300 Sav., .308 Win, .30/06 Sprg., .32 Win Spl., 8x57mm, .348 WCF, and .35 Rem, all 'classic' deer cartridges over the years...! !

The proper combination of three elements made each of these rounds successful: bullet construction, bullet weight, and velocity. Anyone in 'excess' will not make-up for another's short-comings.
Take the .220 Swift: one would think that it has more than enough velocity to make-up for its lack of bullet weight and construction, but, that is not the case. So also for the other .22 "varmint rounds": .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .22 Hornet, .222 Rem, .223 Rem, .22/250 Rem, etc........

So, the 'smallest and lightest recoiling' "deer round": it would be a toss up between the .243 Win, 6mm Rem, and the .250/3000 Sav, all excellent "deer rounds" for general hunting.

Now, if you are talking hunting in the slash and hemlock of the northeast, you should be looking at the .30/30, .32 Spl. or .35 Rem, as your shots are going to be at 25 yards or less, off your knees [or belly], underneath the brush.....! !

Do thay make the Win M94 with a bayonet lug....? ?

I have been in the hemlocks when I was close enough that I could have stabbed the deer, but, I couldn't see anything above its hocks.....! !

Sort of like Nam...............

Hope this helps....! !


.
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  #7  
Old 01-20-2004, 06:28 AM
badredfish

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Thanks for the replys

I have used a 30-30 and the 30-06 for deer, I am thinking of buying a gun to put into the safe for my boy that will soon be deer hunting.

Thanks again,

Badredfish
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  #8  
Old 01-20-2004, 11:27 AM
j.r. guerra in s. texas

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I really think it depends on the shooter. If the shooter and rifle can reliably (95% plus) hit a vital spot such as the spine / neck, nearly any round will kill deer on the spot. Since very few of us are that accurate, a safety factor which every shooter determines for themselves is in order. A .22lr / .22 Magnum will kill a deer, but would I feel comfortable going deer hunting with them on a regular basis - no.

For me, the bottom 'rung' is the .250 Savage, the much older, little bit slower version of the .243 Winchester / 6mm Remington. I have killed 12 deer with my Savage 99T, and 10 died on the spot. The other two died within 50 yards.

Thats my minimum.
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:13 PM
fabulous45s

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I agree with the line being drawn at the .243 and I've always used the 1,000fp rule for deer and 1,500fp for elk.

Also keep the weight of the rifle in mind. A light little Remington Model Seven Youth in .243 will have more felt recoil than a full size Model 700, which will have more than a varmint weight rifle. (and that short little barrel will have a noticable muzzle flip)

One thing you can try if it's not too late....don't tell him too much about recoil. That may cause some anxiety. If he starts readin about kids shooting this thing or that (like little Kim Rhodes winning a gold medal with a 12ga), he may just figure it's a matter of course and there's no flinching or fear.

This worked on my wife. When I first starting talking to her about shooting and having her read and do research, I had her read about teenage girls kicking butt in the IPSC matches. By the time I took her to the range, she thought the only caliber that existed was the 45ACP. After a few trips to the range with a P13-45 I had her try out a Hi-Power and a Mark II.

It may not work for all, but it's worth a look at.
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  #10  
Old 01-20-2004, 10:14 PM
DaveR

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30-30 is a fine gun to start with. It's recoil is just about equal to the .243. Sight in 3" high a 100 and you're good to ~225 yards....6" kill zone. I wouldn't hunt deer with anything less than the 30-30 or .243.
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Old 01-20-2004, 10:16 PM
robert

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Seems like a better question than at first glance. Some classic deer rounds don't make the modern cut.

Hard to equate the .243's 100gr. at 3000fps with a 50-70's 425gr. bullet loafing along at 1100fps; both kill deer but seem to do it in differnt ways.

Also doesn't seem that energy at the point of impact should be as important as energy deposited in the game...if it strikes with 1000fpE+ and exits still having 350fpE+...it shouldn't do as good a job as a round having 800fpE+ that expends it all within the critter (ideal would be for the bullet to fall to the ground at exit...ain't going to happen, but that's the ideal).

Hunted enough to know that it doesn't allways work out the way the paper figures say it should...muzzle loaders using round ball just seem to work a lot better than the paper figures claim....and the hot-rod centerfires just seem to work out a litle less well than the paper figures indicate they should.

Guess the bottom line of my belief is that if using a modern rifle, would consider the .243 a bare minimum (if the 250savage was more popular, it would be a better bottom line than the .243). Would be content with a 30-30 if ranges were short (under 125yards).
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Old 01-21-2004, 01:27 AM
Lou

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One thing to keep in mind would be the state regulations for the area you are going to hunt. Here in Colorado there are several regulations for the different game you are going after. For centerfire rifles a couple are that the rifle must be .24 caliber or larger, min. of a 16" barrel, expanding bullets at least 70 grains for deer antolope and bear, 85 grain for elk and moose. Impact energy at 100 yds. of 1,000 ft. lbs. rated by the manufacturer. The regulations are at (http:wildlife.state.co) , Game Wardens are thicker than traffic cops at times and want to hand out as many citations if they can. We are on a point sytem here and it would be a shame for an avid sportsman to lose hunting rights for an unknown reg., trespassing on state public school property is one that gets a lot if it is leased, can be in the middle of BLM, State or Federal lands in 640 acre plots and not posted as such.

Most of the hunting I've done for deer and elk have been with an 06 or 300 Win Mag because of the versitility in reloading. The 270s', 7mms' and 8mms' are also great for this state and have many different loads. The 308 is a good starter for a kid, the recoil is tolerable and won't scare him off shooting like larger loads. I usually shoot 150 or 165 grain for deer, elk and bear. Dad started me out on a 30-30 lever about 50 years ago and a Monkey Wards 22LR about 55 years ago. %%%%, I'm getting past middle age.
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Old 01-21-2004, 02:11 AM
1986_K5

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if your son is a new shooter into the rifle world, i would stick with either the 30-30 you have or a .243 if you really want to buy a new gun (that way its a new toy for both of you lol). plus it depends on your hunting territory. 30-30 in thick, brushy, close range conditions (less likely for a small branch or twig to deflect the heavier .30 bullet) and .243 for shooting lanes, fields, and longer shots.
the issue with recoil is a toss up. when pulling that trigger on a deer, the recoil really isn't a factor due to adrenaline, but when pulling that trigger on a piece of paper the recoil is something that can make itself very prominant and actually make him not want to shoot it. and he doesnt get used to the rifle for accurate shots. if your really concerned about recoil get a semi-auto, the gas-operated action is going to lessen the recoil, or a BOSS equipped browning a-bolt will work also.
i use a .243 and don't plan on using anything else for white-tail deer sized game, and i never had one run off so why go bigger if this one gets the job done.
but if the rifle is strictly for your son to use, take him to a gun shop and "test fit" different rifles. that way he is very comfortable when the time comes to make a critical shot on something that both you and your son can enjoy in the field as well as on the dinner table. Hope you figure something out and keep us updated.
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Old 01-21-2004, 12:21 PM
Lou

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Another thing to consider is open sights when starting a child on hi-power. Until he gets the hang of it a half moon could be obtained by a scope without the proper eye relief, a stock that is not fitted right or by not shouldering the rifle right. Also if you or one of your buddies reload you could have some loads tamed down a little until he builds confidence.
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  #15  
Old 01-22-2004, 04:57 PM
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squirrelsniper

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There are so many aspects that make up a good deer round that it's basically impossible to cover them all here in a reasonable amount of time.

As for minimum caliber for deer, I always recommend a 243 or larger. While I have used the 22-centerfires for deer with success and so have many other hunters, the margin for error in shot placement is greatly reduced and bullet choice becomes critical. Even kids can handle a 243 without any problems, so there's not really any reason to use anything smaller.

As for the 30-30, it is a good beginner cartridge and it is what I used for my first deer hunt when I was 7.

There are a great variety of good beginner calibers available, it just depends on exactly how much recoil you want.

As for the energy of different calibers, I've never used only energy as a basis for choosing a caliber, because it does not tell you how effective the cartridge will be. The 44magnum from a 6" barrel pistol is a good example. If you suscribe to the energy theory, most loads for the 44mag from a 6" barrel are either marginal or ineffective on deer, even if it was at point blank range (most factory loads have between 700 and 1,050ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle). However, I seriously doubt you'll find anyone willing to believe a 44mag is too weak for close range deer hunting. The energy only plays a part in the effectiveness of the cartridge. The general design of 44mag bullets (large diameter with a blunt nose) cause it to deliver energy quickly and efficiently while opening a large wound channel. While energy plays a part in a round's effectiveness, it's only a part of a much larger picture.

And remember, no matter what caliber you use, bullet placement means everything.
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