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Browning Renaissance Medalist

3K views 16 replies 4 participants last post by  M2HB 
#1 ·
Check out this one with the serial number 62R0015

I've never seen on like it with a serial number like that.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/591108036

What do you experts think?

Mark 2506 and Seaotter,
let me know if you've ever seen anything like it.
 
#2 ·
I started to give a long description, but decided I shouldn't publish it for the world to see what I have to say. (learned from Hillary) These were not assembled and shipped from FN, they were parts guns and came out of the Arnold MO side of BAC. They were serial numbered there not using the FN system of numbering. Nothing can be obtained from BAC as to these pistols, there were quite a few. As far a BAC they do not exist. If you plan to spend much money on them know what you are buying. If you want to contact me personally I will tell you more. What is listed in the pistol description is not entirely correct, actually not much is correct. Buyer beware of what you think you are buying there is the possibility at least some of these were "upgraded" even after leaving Arnold.
 
#4 ·
Mark is a wealth of information. Thanks again.

I wonder how many of these "repro" Medalists are out there?

It is obvious that they used the Renaissance Slide because you can't make that up with the standard slide having many more grooves.

It sounds like they may have used up the left over parts to make up some Renaissance pistols, but if they don't "check out" by serial numbers then they will never have the same value as an original.

The 60 Renaissance Medalists made in the mid 1980s evidently will check out by serial number so their value will be high.

Again, thanks for the info.
 
#5 ·
Good catch on the number of serrations on the slide, but beware Angelo Bee a past FN engraver who does many upgrades in the USA has the serrations ground down before engraving to factory specs. Since he did the engraving in Belgium you won't be able to tell the difference. Mark
 
#6 ·
Not sure of the number of 62R's but I have record of 29 and missing number 0025 so there should be at least 30. Beware the R is not for Renaissance as 18 of these were Standard Medalist when they left Arnold MO. a few Renaissance and the others were Challengers. Just to cook your cake a little now look for the Renaissance and Standard Medalist with serial numbers A70UUXXXX
 
#7 ·
Not sure of the number of 62R's but I have record of 29 and missing number 0025 so there should be at least 30. Beware the R is not for Renaissance as 18 of these were Standard Medalist when they left Arnold MO. a few Renaissance and the others were Challengers. Just to cook your cake a little now look for the Renaissance and Standard Medalist with serial numbers A70UUXXXX
Tell us more about A70UUXXXX.

Also, the seller of # 62R0015 stated
"Up for sale we have a Browning Renaissance Medalist, unfired, LNIB, with an interesting serial number, and an interesting history... According to the historian at Browning, whom I talked to just a few weeks ago, this is one of the less than 25 Renaissance Medalists whose receiver was originally manufactured in Belgium in 1962, but assembled to "modern" configuration in Arnold Missouri somewhere between 1992 and 1995. The point to that, supposedly, was to avoid import tariffs, but that all came to a screeching halt when it was determined the practice was illegal. I asked if I could get a letter to that effect, but was told "no"."

Why would they have unnumbered steel frames laying around from 1962 until the mid 1990s? I know they built 60 Renaissance Medalists in the mid 1980s. I wonder if they used left over frames for those pistols as well.
I assume if there was a "trace" run on this pistol it would go back to Browning in Missouri.
 
#8 ·
Nothing more to tell about the A70UU pistols, you might just runs across one/some.

As I tried to say to everyone, don't read anything into that description because it is wrong. Matter of fact that gun was sold in 1984, not the nineties.

I am now getting off this subject as I have said enough and Browning has nothing to say, everyone must come to their own conclusion. Mark
 
#9 ·
Since that gun was originally sold in 1984, do you think it was a "left over" frame or something that was made in the 1980s.
I would think it was made in the 1980s because there is no logical explanation to leave unsold frames laying around for decades, but that is just a logical conclusion on my part.

Were the 60 BCA Renaissance Medalists made with new frames in the mid 1980s.

Again Mark, thanks for sharing all you your knowledge with us.
 
#10 ·
Since that gun was originally sold in 1984, do you think it was a "left over" frame or something that was made in the 1980s.
I would think it was made in the 1980s because there is no logical explanation to leave unsold frames laying around for decades, but that is just a logical conclusion on my part.

Were the 60 BCA Renaissance Medalists made with new frames in the mid 1980s.

Again Mark, thanks for sharing all you your knowledge with us.
Factories are not always as efficient as one might think.The transition to Japanese production left FN in some degree of disarray.
The frames or whatever components they had,could have been no more than ten years old.
Remember,leftover T-bolt parts were used to make up a good size batch of rifles in the late seventies.
As a BCA member in the eighties,I received a better appreciation of original production year Belgian made guns.Many of the guns made later for the BCA left something to be desired.After seeing the Grade II short ATDs,I was happy that I took advantage of the option to cancel my order,when production dragged on for much longer than expected.
 
#11 ·
Mark2506, you are a wealth of information.

Post #26 in this attachment shows a Renaissance Challenger serial number "62R002" in one of your pictures. I didn't realize that there were Challengers along with Medalists with these odd serial numbers.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589204&highlight=renaissance&page=2

So these Challengers and Medalists were assembled by Browning in Missouri, not by FN in Belgium. Wouldn't that still make them "Brownings" even though they don't "paper" to Browning?

If the Feds did a criminal trace on them, would they come back to Browning in Missouri? I would assume so.

For the "collector" I can see where they may not be as "pure" as the originals, but they appear to have been made a couple of years before the 60 Renaissance Medalists made in 1986 for the BCA.
 
#12 ·
The pistols should be OK, they were just not assembled in Belgium. Where do we come up with the Feds doing a criminal trace? I thought it was clear Browning doesn't show any records ! ! ! Don't try to read or make to much into this. Also just because you see a Renaissance with this serial type don't think it came out that way as many were standard and then upgraded after leaving Browning. Many upgrades have been done on the regular serial numbered guns too, that's why I like verification from the factory. The 60 BCA Medalist have nothing to do with the putting together of these pistols. Those 60 were special ordered and came from FN and I believed all were engraved by the same engraver. It is my understanding 60 is all FN could build from what parts they had left as the Medalist production had ended. Another note, something was mentioned earlier about decades later, from 1976 when the last Medalists were sold by Browning till 1984 when the 62 R's were sold was only eight years and many companies keep parts that long after production for servicing etc. One needs to think these thing through as they being a Company and what you would do if you were the Company. I hope this clears up some confusion.
 
#13 ·
The reason I mentioned "criminal trace" is because manufacturers are required by law to keep records of who they were sold to for the purpose of a criminal trace. They may say that they have no records, but a criminal trace on those pistols would show what distributor they went to or who they were sold to. These are all post GCA 1968 time frame.
 
#14 ·
Come on! BAC is not the manufacture, they are the distributor and we have talked this whole thread how they put these pistols together from parts and sold them out of their warehouse as "repairs" or whatever. They didn't want any records of "gun" sales. Why do you think you cannot get any verification. Just accept the fact and go on, as I said don't try to read anything else into this. It is what it is and nothing else. (A person is required by law to stay within the speed limit, but does everyone do so?)
 
#15 ·
I know FN manufactured them. I always thought Browning was the "importer". They should have records, by law.

Maybe they don't.

That would be interesting.

If Browning put the serial numbers on them, in the US, no matter who supplied them, then Browning would be the "manufacturer", by law.

There are a lot of manufacturers who buy frames, or receivers from other suppliers. Think of how many AR-15 manufacturers buy the receivers from other sources.

Once there is a serial number on them, they need to be able to be traced, since the 1968 Gun Control Act. It isn't like violating the speed limit. My bet is that not conforming to ATF traces could lead to license revocation. It certainly can for dealers.

I'm just trying to learn the history of these. I always thought it was simple with just two different runs. The originals and the 60 from the BCA. Now it appears that there are these other "62Rxxx" and then possibly other "fakes".

Mark, do you have contact info at Browning to check on the validity of a "regular" Browning Renaissance Medalist?


Thanks for the info on these fine pistols.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I would like to check with Browning on a Browning Renaissance Medalist, serial number 371**T70 to make sure it is one of the original 382, real Renaissance Medalists.

Does anyone know the name of the person and phone number at Browning to check on this particular pistol?

Thanks in advance.



Edit:
I will try to contact Lenny Rees
 
#17 ·
I spoke with Lenny and he is AWESOME!!!

He called me back within 30 minutes to verify a Browning Renaissance Medalist as being a legitimate one. I've been trying to find a decent deal on one for over two decades. Now I'm closing the deal on a legitimate one.:bthumb:
 
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