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Classic "old school" benchrest?

10K views 59 replies 24 participants last post by  52DH&R12 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I shoot some local fun benchrest matches, these are generally older rifles, 37's, 52's, 40X's and such, we also shoot sporters. We shoot aperture sight and scope matches, no one piece rest, front rest and rear bag only.

This is all pretty new to me as I purchased my first 52 in late April and now have four, two D's a E and a Miroku sporter. My rest is a cast iron Bald Eagle and I use a Caldwell rear bag. As a general rule we all shoot cheaper ammo like SK Standard Plus. For scope matches I have Weaver 24X's and use Redfield Palma, International MK8 rears and International fronts for the aperture matches. For the sporter matches we generally shoot 8X scopes.

I see lots of advice on shooting from one piece rests but seldom see anything on old school aperture sight shooting or shooting off a rest and bag. So if you shoot or have shot the "old school" style benchrest and have some pointers please post them up.

Justin
 
#3 ·
Good for you! It's a blast shooting the old "workhorses" isn't it? Had so much fun shooting those types of guns.

One thing I wouldn't fall into though. Just because you see a lot of people shooting fancy custom rifles off of fancy one piece rests...don't think they all started out that way. Most started just as you are doing.

The thing to remember is that any of the high end guns factory rifles like the 52D's/E's, 40x's, Anschutz 54's can compete with about anything out there. Where the difference comes into play is consistency. Hence, the migration to custom actions, barrels, etc by those who want to go a step further. But you can do very well with the older factory rifles.

I started with a 40x, 52D and Anschutz 2007. Shot both aperture sights and with scopes. First BR formal BR match I ever went to, I pulled the apertures off the Anschutz, stuck on a scope and went to the IR 50 Nationals. Didn't win, but did pretty well. Have won a few targets here and there with all of those guns in formal matches, and even won a couple of matches when things fell in line. The funniest thing that ever happened was once I stuck a tuner on a Kimber 82G to see if it might help my aperture shooting and while trying to tune the thing (had a scope on it) ended up winning a BR match! Talk about funny! A $400 rifle beating nothing but custom guns!

The moral of the story is you don't need a custom rest or a custom rifle to do well. You've figured that part out. But, and this is a big but, you do need stuff like that when you want to go further up the food chain. Just the nature of things.

As to shooting apertures, I've used the Palmas, Olympic and International sights on some of my guns. Also different Anschutz aperture sights. But the best I've had the pleasure of using is a Phoenix rear with some of the Euro accessories. Takes things to another level. But I mostly shoot apertures at 100 yards now. At 50 I do pretty decent, but at 100 it's another world and it's a blast when you drop them all in the x ring. Try it sometime. The best feeling in the world is shooting a 200/20x on an A5 at 100 with aperture sights. Better than winning any big BR match I've ever won...

I've got some buddies just like you. They shoot off of bipods only, factory rifles, no tuners, and they even stand while shooting. Though, they do have a bench they sit their rifles on while shooting. Went down there one evening to shoot with them. They shoot all kinds of targets, money is involved and they will take your lunch money if you don't know what you're doing. Well, even if you know what you're doing they will take it! Heck after we shot a few different types of targets with scopes, we started shooting apertures with the A23/5 at 50. It was the best time I've ever had in shooting a match. And I've shot in quite a few matches!

Good luck going forward. All of this is fun. Just don't think that someone needs a fancy rest or a fancy gun to be good at something. Just enjoy what you're doing and don't make it into something it's not. I've still got my Kimber 82G, and if I stuck a scope on it, I would not be afraid to shoot it in any BR match on this planet. But it's too much fun shooting apertures so I just do that anymore. Got burned out with all the stupid side shows going on in BR so took a step back and just shoot for myself anymore.

Do try a bipod though. You might find it's even better than shooting from a two piece rest. Just takes a few minutes to figure out how your gun likes to be shot when there's no rest involved.

JMO

Kenny
 
#5 ·
Do try it! My friend George (Win52HR12) here on RFC is a pro at shooting bipods. He's one of the gang I mentioned earlier. They even have a name! The Bi Polar Bipod Posse from Bland! Nice ring to it don't you think?

Hopefully he'll see this thread and chime in. He's very very good at shooting and he almost always shoots off of a bipod. As do the guys he shoots with every Friday night. Heck, George even shoots his fancy custom rifle off of a bipod.

They use different types of bipods as some use the Harris models and some (like George) use homemade models. He made me one and it's awesome. Slips right into the rail of a 40x, 52, Anschutz or Kimber 82G. That's what I have mounted anymore. I do have a Harris that I stuck on my 1712 in case I ever can get to a Squirrel Match here locally.

Oh, a funny story to show how "dyed in the wool" George is when it comes to shooting BR in an unorthodox manner. We were at a match once and George asked if he could try one of my two piece rests. I was using a SEB NEO at the time. Which if you know anything about two piece rests it's, well it's kind of good...Anyway, George goes to the line with my rest and shoots. After he's done I ask how he liked it. He said he didn't use the joystick, just propped the gun on the rest and moved the rear bag to where he wanted as he shot the target. Who shoots like that off a $1200 joystick rest? And they don't use the joystick! Only George....

Anyway, he can give you some great advice on all of that. As well as a few of his friends who hang out there. They don't post much, but if they do, they know of what they speak. And they're all great guys.

Good luck

Kenny
 
#7 · (Edited)
Hey, Im in! :bthumb:
Ive never got past the old school gear.....lol
And my sorta 'tuned' factory rifles are more capable of possibles than I am anymore.
That saves a ton o' money!
 
#9 ·
I shoot the old school stuff in our club matches. Winchester 52s, etc. and Bald Eagle front rests and 1980'ish rear leather bag sitting on a plywood base or, since club rules allow, a home built rear rest built with roller blade wheels. For light sporter class I use a Caldwell Rock BR rest on the front. I'm currently averaging over 249 on the IR 50 target for this year with the 52 in our matches, so not bad for a factory gun. But we do use scopes; I wish our club had enough interest in shooting the peep sights to get up a match, as I have really enjoyed shooting those in the past. As Kenny says (listen to the man, he gives good advice), you don't have to have fancy and expensive equipment to shoot well. The other shooters in my club can attest to that, as I win my share of matches. Never shot much off a bipod, as the kind of matches I shoot are more easily shot with an adjustable rest.

I once gave consideration to going the custom built gun route, but gave a lot of thought to what I really liked enjoyed doing and decided to stick with the factory guns....haven't looked back and am having a large time doing what I do. I agree with Kenny, the old factory target guns can shoot very well and can win some matches, but they lack the consistency to compete against the good custom guns in the big matches on a consistent basis. But if you are not wanting to compete at the very top, they can be the cat's meow. :D

James
 
#10 ·
I have a couple of customs and more than several old school target rifles, I shoot them all from bi-pods. Its all in what you get use to. I have had a few nice rest, but really never saw a difference in the scores I shot using them vs bipods.

Most of the matches I shoot at are strictly for old school rifles, our club requires the use of bi-pods, factory actions, factory barrels ( NO TUNERS ), anything else is okay, stocks, bedding, triggers ammo........

I have shot scores with my 52D equal to the best I have shot with my custom rifles, but the custom is more consistent.

Harris makes a bipod adapter.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/511713/harris-6a-bipod-adapter-stud-for-american-rails-5-16-width-black?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Shooting+-+Rests%2C+Bi-Pods+%26+Benches&utm_content=511713&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Shooting+-+Rests%2C+Bi-Pods+%26+Benches-_-Harris+Bipods-_-511713&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgZynzObI4wIVAq_ICh1e0Q4WEAQYASABEgKiKfD_BwE

that would work for your 52.
 
#12 ·
Me too

I too shoot a rock and a bag at 100 only,,,my 52c can outshoot any of my other rifles with peeps,, I like my palma's and an Olympic front with small o app..Ihave a 40x m12 anne match 54 and a disappointing custom..I'm 70 and have only a 1 point difference when I use a scope...love it when I teach the young'uns a lesson..have all the fun shooting my friend

nick
 
#16 ·
I don't have a picture handy of mine, but hopefully Jorge doesn't mind me posting this pic of one of his guns with his bipod.

Suhl https://www.flickr.com/photos/83530047@N08/

It's an old Suhl that had the stock redone. He sent me the picture to show it all finished up. In the pic, you'll see his homemade bipod. He made one for me a few years ago and I've messed with it a time or two but was too in love with the fancy rests. Now that all of that stuff is in the past, I just shoot off the bipod.

Maybe George will post a picture of his custom Falcon with the bipod attached. Beautiful rifle and when he's got it going well, he's a handful with that thing! Has beat me too many times to count.

Kenny
 
#14 · (Edited)
My earliest style 'old school' rest was in shooting over the log chunk gun muzzle loader matches, ala the Alvin York Memorial Match. I used my own 'chunk' made of a piece of 4x6 post and a pair of sideplates of 2x plank held together with a length of threaded rod topped with wing nuts. Rolled up my ropin' gloves as a pad. Did pretty good with my .50cal.
A good step beyond a hunk o' firewood.
Btw, I used that chunk again just today messing about, basic but it still works. My step up from there is my D.R.Greenlaw fancy windage adj. top on a modded up/repurposed El Cheapo Hoppe's base and elev. screw. c/w a Protector front bag a big rabbit-ear rear bag. This all fits, and more, into a HD construction tool satchel.
Do they work better than sandbags? Well, the way I watch most people stack sandbags, one atop the other/tippy/way too high I am amazed. I 'crib' stack sandbags such that the top bag is across; solid, stable, predictable. But I dont want to haul sandbags any more.
 
#17 · (Edited)
My Falcon with my fabricated ( homemade sounds cheap) bi-pod





The one I fabricated for Kenny.





It took me several years to convert Kenny to bi-pod use and give up the rest habit :D

There are a few reasons I shoot off a bi-pod, first is 80% of the matches I attend, it is all that is allowed. Second is I don't have to lug a 30+ pound rest around with me to other matches, mine fits in the range bag. Third, I get a good bit of satisfaction when I shoot a really good target, knowing I had something to do with it, other than the ammo and equipment.
 
#19 ·
Now you've reminded me I was going to mess about with a bench height bipod this year.....and its already past mid-July :eek: I did get the 'clone' version of the Harris shorty off Amazon last year and played with it just enough to realize I had more to learn (much more....) but it was cheap and easy enough to give a go to see if I wanted to go deeper into my wallet. Where I left off was promising.
 
#20 ·
What rear bag are you guys using? Is there one style that works better? As I mentioned I have a cheap Caldwell that appears to be filled with corn cobb or something similar.

I don't know if I'm using it right but I slide it back and forth as needed then squeeze it to fine tune.

George, that Falcon is in some pretty wood.
 
#21 ·
Protector large, rabbit ear, sand filled firm.
Soft, light filler stuff carries easier, that is its virtue, perhaps only one?
Some of us don't like the bottom of the stock to be in the bottom of the V of the rabbit ears.
And, imo, the squeezing of the rear changes not only the elev. for the 'fine tune' but adds to inconsistency.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I want to chime in here. Where can a fella get a one piece "Y" bipod that will link up with a Kimber 82G.

My much younger shooting buddy has fallen in with some great rifle builders and shooters so he has stepped in deep with a superb rifle and got a custom built rifle and custom one piece rest to boot. Me on the other hand went "cheap" on my first and last target .22, a Kimber 82g. Fortunately it has already been tuned up with 6oz trigger (about 4.5oz too heavy compared to many), nice crown, professional bedding and shoots pretty well. Having never seen an ARA target before or ever shot off the bench like that using a two-piece I shot a 1950 on my first and only card with SK Pistol Match.

I already realize many things I did wrong and will have to work on developing a solid routine. Reading the wind is one of them.

My shooting buddy is letting me trade into his Bald Eagle front rest but these simple "Y" shape bipods intrigue me to no end.

Is there a commercial variant to the ones pictured? I am not interested in Harris or its clones, I have those for my other .22s. I just want to watch my friends shoot great with all there custom gear and when it is my turn go up to the bench, set up and get on with it without a lot of fuss. Also, I am not going to "chase" ammo, whether it be Lapua or Eley lots. Although I might consider a tunner and mid barrel tuner if they seemed to help.
 
#23 ·
I grew up shooting iron sights on a 52D club gun. Eraned my distinguished expert at 17, I'm 65 now. I shoot it now in club benchrest matches. I might suggest trying colored inserts for your front aperture with a hole large enough to give you some space around your black target. Also make sure you're wearing an accurate prescription pair of eye glasses. I had a pair made with distance in the right lens and reading in the left. That way I can see to shoot as well as make adjustments with the reading lens. Good luck! Oh, I like the pink front aperature. I have Redfield International sights and got the aperature from either Champion Shooters or Champion's Choice...
 
#24 ·
i shoot a bsa martini in the local fun matches- course as far as br is concerned everything about this rifle is wrong. other than a forend plate and the scope on top it is stock. does right well when I do my part and sure makes life a bit miserable for some others (snicker). oh I have 52's 40x, Anny's as well. its just so much more fun with this old girl . original Seb or Farley rest up front eared bag in back. play with the air rifle br game as well. So I have lotsa worms crawling all over the place.
 
#25 ·
I used to shoot a lot of old school position matches when I was younger & Okie is right about the colored front aperture. I never tried pink, but depending on light conditions went from almost clear, usually yellow & sometimes orange.

I now run a weekly "New School" (any front rest, scope)local benchrest match. We do not allow rear bags to throw a LITTLE shooter skill into it. Usually shoot 40-50 shots at very small (flies, ants etc.) targets from 30-40Y. We also have some interesting ones trying to shoot an apple off a head, a pipe in the mouth etc. that can get you negative points if you hit the head! We then move out for about 10-20 shots at 100Y bulls eyes.

A lot of fun- kind of like going for coffee with the guys, but pulling a trigger.

A lot of different rifles & ammo have been tried and usually the high dollar rifle & scope combo with expensive match ammo has a advantage. But, last week a Savage FV-SR on a Caldwell bipod using a cheap $45 Walmart Centerpoint scope and CCI-sv won it! We usually have a little wind here, so breaking the shot in the right direction for the wind is more important than equipment.
 
#26 ·
Thanks for the pointers Okietrader :bthumb:. I shoot both clear and the plastic bar type (with the hole in the center) front inserts and like larger aperture size. Currently I don't shoot with my glasses on but will give it a try.

Do you like the colored inserts because of the contrast with the target?

Justin
 
#27 · (Edited)
Actually, the color just helps with the lighting conditions for the time you're shooting. If you can get that front "ring" nice and crisp, you're going to shoot better.

I originally played with the colored inserts, but found it easier to just use something like this:

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=9565

Saves the hassle of changing front inserts/filters.

But then, I use adjustable fronts too:

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=9743

These screw into existing front globes. You can buy complete fronts that either clamp onto the front sight block or mount to the existing grooves in some of the Anschutz barrels.

Note: This front is 18mm and that's fine if you want. But would recommend 22 mm fronts, especially if you use any bloop or sight extension.

But again, use what you wish. I kind of took the aperture shooting seriously so was always looking for the best setup I could find. Hence, the fancy Euro accessories and later the more upscale sights themselves.

Personally I always liked the Palma rear sight over the Olympic or International (even the 1/8 adj International). Main reason being, I could screw an adjustable Euro rear Iris straight into the Palma vs having to use an adaptor to mount the same Iris on an Olympic or International sight. Of course if you use an Anschutz, Centra or other Euro type of rear sight you'll be ok. Of all of them, I like the 1/8 min click Anschutz 7020 sight:

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=000968

Later I found the Phoenix sight and went with that. Love those sights! There are other options too, just have to decide how deep you want to jump into this.

Good luck. Shooting apertures is by far the most fun thing I've ever done with a rifle.

Kenny

Edit: The Kimber 82G factory sights take any of the Euro accessories. The front globe accepts 18mm screw in sights and the rear will allow any Euro rear Iris. One other note is that if you do use adjustable fronts, make sure you order the correct one. They come in different range settings. Some people like to shoot at the lower settings, some at higher settings. Get one that has the settings you're comfortable using.
 
#28 ·
Thanks Kenny.
The 52E I recently bought came with a MK8, the sight has a four color filter and an adjustable iris. I have no idea who made the iris as there are no markings. The eye piece screws on to it and is made of brass and has two spanner nuts on the inside plus a gasket.

I shot the rifle with the MK8 but changed it out to one of the Palmas I have with a Gehman adjustable iris that I use on my Feinwerkbau air rifles.

We shot apertures Wednesday night, I shot the E and finished tied for first. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread these are just for fun. We shoot the rifles, and the breeze with some picking and aggravating along the way.

Next week we're shooting sporters with 8X max magnification at 50 yards on A-17 targets. I shot my Browning 52 today and it really hurt my feelings. I'm beginning to wonder if it'll ever like me. LOL
 
#29 · (Edited)
Not sure how old school this is, but here is picture of my ranges USBR match from last month.


We have 2 divisions, Match and Sport. The above photo is of the Match division.
Besides new and old Anschutz rifles, we have/had Win 52's, Rem 40X's, a Shul, and several other older target rifles.

However our match does not allow for any kind of mechanical front rest. Also no tuners.
Must be shot off a front bag of any type, or a Bi-pod.
Rear bags are allowed.

Smooth
 
#30 ·
It is not always the rifle, just as it is not always the shooter... or the ammo!

I have a 1950s' Martini in .22 l.r., and a pre WWII Savage, both of which will often outshoot more modern match grade and custom built .22 rifles, when using the same higher grade ammo in both.

Sometimes, however, I admit to experience a total failure to hit the bullseye, but that is due to my body failing, not the rifles or ammo.

I prefer to shoot prone, or bench, supported by arms, not bag or bipod, the way we always shot matches 40~50 years ago, which shows the shooters ability to handle the firearm, not the mechanical support.

I notice, however, that I am getting to the point where a bipod is becoming a necessity outside of hunting, where I have long preferred to shoot from bipods anywhere that was not wooded areas.
 
#31 · (Edited)
.................I prefer to shoot prone, or bench, supported by arms, not bag or bipod, the way we always shot matches 40~50 years ago, which shows the shooters ability to handle the firearm, not the mechanical support.

I notice, however, that I am getting to the point where a bipod is becoming a necessity outside of hunting, where I have long preferred to shoot from bipods anywhere that was not wooded areas.
B-Jack, totally agree with you, old time shooting with no aids/rests bar a sandbag was real shooting, it had its place and its time and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Then again as every year goes by, anything that makes my pastime easier on the body is welcomed, the mind is willing but the body objects from time to time, too many times for my liking, it is what it is.

Any day on the range is a good day and any day you can tie your shoe lase's without falling over is a great start, long may it last. We'll still give the young guns a run for their money.

Giz :)
 
#34 ·
And doing this costs less too....

The costs in trying to keep up in some of these games is more than some people want to spend. Someone will run a match and decree no scopes over 10 power. If your rifle has a 12 power scope, you either don't compete, or you spend the money for a 10 power scope. I am a big believer in letting people shoot what they have, and what they love. Sure, it's not a level field, but in truth, it never is. I am 77 years old and my eyes are not young, but I do have time to practice a lot. People of all ages and abilities need to be able to enjoy the sport. You can always create categories and handicaps within the same match. So I say, go out with what you have and shoot. In truth, you compete with yourself. Enjoy.
 
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