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  #16  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:53 PM
Bradical
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSc View Post
The problem with any self defense weapon isn't the weapon or the caliber- it is the shooter. Can the shooter (you), get off a well aimed shot, quickly- while under extreme duress- as in being rushed, attacked, yelled at or shot at, and having your life in danger. ...

Bob
Yup. Also, any self-defence situation is by definition a counter strike. Someone's already put the fear of God in you ... now what? If you're very aware of your situation, perhaps you'll be able to spot trouble before it starts and evade. If not, maybe you'll be lucky enough to semi- prepare a counter ambush.

I practice instinctive aiming and firing a first shot from my hip. With practice, I found I could easily put a round center mass reliably.

The toughest thing for me to do is draw quickly from concealment. I also practice moving to cover while drawing, and firing.

Practice, practice, practice. This is the only way to build muscle memory.

Also, recently, I've switched from a 1911 Combat Commander in .45 to a P35 in 9mm. Ergonomics, were very similar between the two platforms. The 9 gives me better control and more rounds. Compared to the .45, the 9 feels almost as gentle as a .22.

Last edited by Bradical; 05-24-2019 at 09:47 PM.
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  #17  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:57 PM
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Here's my take:

All handgun calibers, possibly excepting magnum calibers, are horrible at stopping the threat. Honestly, you can do more damage, quicker, with a knife, or a pointy stick, with the right skill set.

If you want to carry a .22, I suggest a revolver, due to the priming reliability issue.

I often carry a North American Arms .22.

Nobody wants to be perforated, and if you keep all of your shots center of mass, you'll likely win the fight.
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  #18  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:04 PM
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned and bears a thought or two. Most shooting situations- cop involved or private citizen- happen at 7 yards or less.... if you think pulling out a gun and making a killing shot is going to work in the nanosecond it takes for someone to cover 21 feet, you're kidding yourself. There is much more to self defense than carrying a weapon and knowing how to use it. You need to know how to create a defensible position- push the attacker off far enough to get off a shot, or run for cover to protect yourself while shooting or getting ready to shoot.

A friend and I talked about this a few times and my explanation to him was " and explosion of violence" - are you capable of being as violent as necessary to survive the situation? Something I learned in the Army and still carry with me- you have to be willing to do ANYTHING you need to do to subdue your assailant and survive and there is no such thing as a fair fight. Poking eyes, kicking kneecaps, throat punch, etc.... whatever it takes. A gun takes much more time and thought but is a great defense if you have the time- which you may not. Being prepared is a better ploy.

Bob
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  #19  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:48 PM
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The Quik Shok data is from Marshall & Sanow Stopping Power. Chapter 29 ‘Updated Shooting Results.
Small data set, take with a ‘grain of salt’
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  #20  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:57 PM
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My wife's primary gun is a M&P22C. Loaded with 40 gr. CCI Mini Mags.
**As a side note. She works from home and I am with her almost all the time when out. I am always armed with a 15 round full sized 9mm or my LC9s Pro w/extra 9 round mag.**

She has grip strength issues, due to an extreme arm injury, but is capable of racking/firing a 9mm.

What I do with her at the range.
9mm Ruger SR9 and her concealed carry 9mm EC9s: B-27 Target:

Training:
Start eyes closed. I choose distance 3/5/7 yrds. Open eyes, pick up gun, acquire target, fire required rounds.

Slow fire, full mag 9mm, she is a decent shot at self defense ranges. Center ring and 9-8 ring.

Rapid fire, 3-7+ rounds 9mm, she will get the first round somewhere on center mass with follow ups kind of all over with plenty outside the 7 ring.

S&W M&P22C:
Same training scenario.

Slow fire 10 rounds/reload 10 rounds .22LR, All center mass, 9 ring or better, head/throat/upper chest CNS shots. softball or better sized groups.

Rapid fire 10 round/reload 10 rounds .22LR, All center mass 8 ring or better, head/throat/upper chest CNS shots. Cantaloupe sized grouping.

So..I don't know where all these crazed meth heads or people on PCP are but chances are most aren't going to be of that type. I'd rather her be able to confidently put 10 rounds or more of .22LR into a threat than maybe 1 with erratic follow ups. As stated above. I am with her so add another 9mm into the equation.
I'm pretty sure multiple .22 rounds on target is going to be a deterrent to most anybody and stop a attack,assault, or break in.

In all the rounds of .22LR we've run through, upwards near 5000 rounds. Aguila Super Extra 40 gr. HV CPRN (1255), Ci 40 gr CPRN HV (1250), Remington Thunderbolts RN (1255), and CCI 40 gr. Mini Mag HV (1235) ammo. There has been only a handful, at best, of rounds that have failed to fire in any of our .22 semi autos. M&P22C, M&P22, Sig Mosquito, Savage 64 FXP and Mossberg 715T.

All in all..I'd call that reliable enough for self defense.
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  #21  
Old 05-24-2019, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldmountain2 View Post
5. I accidentally lit off a .357 after I had removed my ear protection, outdoors. My ears rang for days! The thought of setting one off in a hallway really requires guts. One shot and I would be both deaf and muzzle flash blinded. Follow up shot is very problematic. .22ís allows multiple shots.

Look forward to reading your input.
Many Thanks
I shot a 22lr pistol un-muffed to see how loud it was 2 years ago and it was, ah, shall we say I'll never do that again. I did it to see what I might be dealing with should the day ever come where I'd have to use my grip lasered 38+P revolver. That said I've since gone to a reliable lasered 9mm semi holding 15 rds. for home defense. I came to the final conclusion I probably would be even deafer than I already am but hopefully more alive than the home invader(s).
IMA I'm in the multiple lasered pistols at the ready camp, not unwieldy in tight quarters shotguns. Whatever one practices with to give peace of mind is something each of us making such decisions have to wrestle with.
I might also add take a concealed carry class if possible and I promise one will learn some very valuable info of SD tactics and laws in your state.
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  #22  
Old 05-24-2019, 10:18 PM
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Not for me , I want a big gun, scarier, and a loud gun scarier, Iíd prefer the bg run away any day.
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  #23  
Old 05-24-2019, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flylo View Post
For 30 years I carried & still do sometimes a NAA 22lr in a pocket change purse fits in any pocket with 5 stingers. At 10 yards I can put them all in a pie plate. Now I added a tiny laser & the fold out handle which clips in my watch pocker & looks like a knife.
I had a NAA Mini in .22 Mag with the folding grip. Yes it looks like a pocketknife and is about as useful in a fight. You need to be able to grip, draw and fire a defensive firearm in three steps MAX, or you are already on the losing side of the encounter.

With this setup the process is: fumble it out, locate and push the release buttons, swing open and lock the grip, grasp the grip, cock the hammer and fire. All repeat shots are single action so you take at least twice as long to get them off. Somewhere in the middle of that drill you have been shot half a dozen times by a bad guy with a Glock because he already had his gun out with evil intent .... I sold mine for just this reason, it is close to useless but it gives you a very false sense of security. The fundamental flaw is that opening that grip requires the use of both hands and fine motor skills, and you have to look away from the threat to do it. This is probably not going to result in a positive outcome.

DA revolvers or semi-autos with a round in the chamber do the job. Unless the guy is seriously doped out, in which case you better be going for a head shot with a sizable bullet to instantly shut down his central nervous system.

John Davies
Spokane WA

Last edited by John E Davies; 05-25-2019 at 12:21 AM.
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2019, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradical View Post
Yup. Also, any self-defence situation is by definition a counter strike. Someone's already put the fear of God in you ... now what? If you're very aware of your situation, perhaps you'll be able to spot trouble before it starts and evade. If not, maybe you'll be lucky enough to semi- prepare a counter ambush.

I practice instinctive aiming and firing a first shot from my hip. With practice, I found I could easily put a round center mass reliably.

The toughest thing for me to do is draw quickly from concealment. I also practice moving to cover while drawing, and firing.

Practice, practice, practice. This is the only way to build muscle memory.

Also, recently, I've switched from a 1911 Combat Commander in .45 to a P35 in 9mm. Ergonomics, were very similar between the two platforms. The 9 gives me better control and more rounds. Compared to the .45, the 9 feels almost as gentle as a .22.
With the younger shooters that just got their conceal carry license I have a very strong sense of believing that they are not aware of their situation. The reason I make this statement that in this era now the trend happens to be with your face buried to a smartphone. It does not matter where I go at the mall, stores, movies, or even while driving their face is plastered to that phone and I would likely bet that their dominant hand is holding that phone. So that is two strikes against them, lack of situational awareness and their dominant hand not being free to reach for their holstered gun or their pocket and react to an attack in a timely lifesaving fashion . So, in reality it does not matter what caliber they carry.
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  #25  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:36 AM
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The main problem with .22 is reliability. They all fail to fire eventually. With a revolver you just pull the trigger again; a bit easier than a FTF in a pistol.

The most important point of choosing a carry gun is the "carry" part. If it is too big or too heavy, it will be a constant nuisance to carry. So, I nixed rimfire, larger than necessary, and heavier than necessary.

The .25 ACP is barely better than a rimfire, besides having reliable ignition. Jennings, Beretta, and Precision Arms (nice but pricey exact copy of Baby Browning in several finishes) are the only makers I know of new .25s.

So I moved up a notch. Final choice was NAA's Guardian 32. Reasonably effective .32 ACP round. Light recoil. Will fit in a shirt pocket. Weighs only 15 ounces fully loaded. Every part is stainless except the grips and magazine bases. DAO with no safeties for easy draw and squeeze.

It's an improved version of Seecamp's once revered LWS 32. Better 1911 style mag release, no mag safety, and feeds anything; the Seecamp requires certain HP ammo. And NAA has great CS for questions, parts, or the rare service.
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  #26  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:39 AM
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Small note:
Do not shoot a thief / burglar!

( Unless you or loved one physically threatened.)

As an LA prosecutor wrote: You don’t own ANYTHING worth the cost of a murder trial with you as defendant!

Also, you will probably loose your gun to the police. Don’t shoot anyone with your Grandfathers 1st issue S&W .44 Triple Lock!

I carry Kimber Pepper Blaster. Look it up!
Many Thanks for all excellent responses.
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  #27  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:31 AM
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Good thing I'm not in LA.
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  #28  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:33 AM
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Vasquez, that is true on sooo many levels!
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  #29  
Old 05-25-2019, 12:22 PM
Bradical
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ms6852 View Post
With the younger shooters that just got their conceal carry license I have a very strong sense of believing that they are not aware of their situation. The reason I make this statement that in this era now the trend happens to be with your face buried to a smartphone. ... So, in reality it does not matter what caliber they carry.
Situational awareness is probably the most effective self-defence tool anyone has. However, when things go south, they go south fast and sometimes happen even after you thought you weren't at risk.

I agree, that those who have their cell phone in their hand are at huge disadvantage and probably won't even let it go when things go south.
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Oldmountain2 View Post
Small note:
Do not shoot a thief / burglar!

( Unless you or loved one physically threatened.)

As an LA prosecutor wrote: You donít own ANYTHING worth the cost of a murder trial with you as defendant!
What do they say, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"
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