To improve feel and lighten your trigger pull, grinding/Stoning the the angle on the area of engagement of the hammer is one way to achieve a smoother - crisper trigger. Best of all it can be done yourself for free (if you already have the tools). The tools you will need are stones, vise and a 1/8" drill bit.
In short: Slide the .125" drill bit through the pivot hole of the hammer then set the hammer in a vise so that the drill rod is sitting on both of the vise jaws. When tightening the vise set the bottom of the sear notch in the hammer level with the top of the jaws. Then remove any material of the engagement area that rises above the the vise by stoning or grinding.
This is how the setup should look:
In this pic note that the bottom of the notch is at the top of the vise jaw (red line) to help achieve this you can insert a razor blade in the notch and push down if the notch is too high.
cletus hungwell said:
I do my rough work w/ either a cheap, super course stone, or just use metal cutting sanding belts (i have plenty of those).... when i get down close, i bring it in to final size w/ a medium india, the buff w/ the paper wheel and compound.....
the paper wheel is the slotted paper buffing wheel sold/used by those knife sharpeners at the gunshows...... great product!!!.....firmer than hardest felt, cheap.....you can get them from texas knifemakers supply, jantz supply, or any of the knifemaker's supply houses........ it comes as a "kit" w/ 2 wheels, one is fine gritted, and w/ lube to cut heat, the other is the buff...it comes w/ le homiedou cr51 rouge....good stuff for alot of gun work......will put the "slick and shiny" on most any metal part, if you've got the skills.....
if you don't want to buy the paper wheel setup, just go up through the fine white arkansas stones...it will be fine for your finish!....
Here are some before and after pics, the difference is not very much.
How it works...
cletus hungwell said:
Changing the angle will reduce pull force required..... the extreme negative angle required to keep the hammer from slipping off the sear when it's dancin on it's pin during cycling is what makes the pull so heavy on the stock guns.......if you take a group out of a gun, you can watch the hammer being cammed to the rear as you pull the trigger...... what changing the angle does is reduce the amount of trigger pull force used to cam the hammer backwards against it's spring......the tighter the fit of hammer/sear to their pins, the less negative angle required......
of course, the combination of the two is what you'd go for when you're lookin for precision over reliability.... it's a balancing act, determined by your intended purpose of the group......
the angle is determined by a straight line running from the center of the pivot hole to the BASE of the sear notch....that line is 0deg.....
as most pivot holes i've checked have all been .218", that puts the center @ .109" from the edge of the hole....
(using a .125" rod in the pivot hole of the hammer) my math shows this will give a 3.9 degree angle......use the trig function on a scientific calculator to figure these....
it seems to me that the minimum angle needed will be determined by the amount of slack of the hammer/sear on their pins....the tighter the fit, the less angle needed... i do not have any hard numbers on slack vs angle at this time though......
any pivoting part's 0deg angle has to be a straight line from the center of the pivot point straight out through the edge..... this is the angle that allows sear movement w/o the hammer moving....... we have to add some negative to make up for the slack in the pins/parts.... to get this, we use a 2nd line, a negative angle intersecting the 0deg at the base of the notch......as this line extends past the base of the notch, the material climbs out over the sear nose, and creates the effect of the springs forcing the sear deeper into the notch....... the amount of angle, and the depth of the notch are selected based on intended purposes of the gun/group.....
or, to get the desired angle, use .004" over center per deg....
0deg=.109", or 7/64's
1deg=.113", or a #33 drill shank
2deg=.117", a #32 is .116", add .001 shim under it!
3deg=.121", a #31 is .120, so, add a thou of shim stock....
4deg=.125"
these are approx figures...shim between the pin and the vise to get additional angle adjustments......
i'm really amazed, and thankfull to all here, for all the help and knowledge so freely shared.... and, i get a special kick out of pitchin in an idea from time to time.....
You can legally make a receiver for the 10/22 out of delrin or anything you want. You just can't sell it, ever. I doubt that it would work well either.
applegat, that jig that you referred to is mine. I wouldn't suggest something like that for you anyway. How many hammers do you do in a year? I do quite a bit and started a thread to show my work, I am not trying to sell you one. The vise and pin method is good for those who don't have the machines to do a permanent jig. I just got tired of spending too much time on each hammer doing it by hand. I get the idea from your thread that you think that a permanent jig is silly?
Okay, I've finially tried this method and here are the results.
first, I will say it was quite a challenge lining up the botton of the notch with the top of the vise using a .125 drill bit.
The box stock pull on this trigger group was over 6lbs. using my Lyman guage. after stoning the hammer notch and nothing else using a 1/8 inch drill bit the pull dropped to 4lb. 7oz. and after polishing all the parts it lost another 5oz. of pull weight.
Okay, I've finially tried this method and here are the results.
first, I will say it was quite a challenge lining up the botton of the notch with the top of the vise using a .125 drill bit.
The box stock pull on this trigger group was over 6lbs. using my Lyman guage. after stoning the hammer notch and nothing else using a 1/8 inch drill bit the pull dropped to 4lb. 7oz. and after polishing all the parts it lost another 5oz. of pull weight.
Well I ordered a PC trigger group kit the other day, so I figured that I didn't have anything to lose trying out this little mod. I did it in a vice with course, medium and fine stones. The result is great after spending only 5 min's on it, my trigger breaks at 3lb 4oz. It does seem like it has more creep in it then it used to but it sure is a lot lighter. I didn't take any before pictures unfortunately but here are the after's.
That is just because it is possible to feel it now. It doesn't snap out of the socket it was in. It just slides across the surface. Now polishing with very fine stones and a light buff with pink or white cratex will produce an extreme shine and much less felt creep. The cratex is only for those who aren't faint of heart and can control the angles well during the polishing. I also polish the whole bottom radius of the hammer.
hey big tizzle,
thx for steppin up and bein brave enough to risk some parts!!...i appreciate the vote of confidence!!....batman is right on the mark about the creep...but, there are solutions for that if you're going for a "bench" type group....squawsatch, sawdust, skeeter, and others pioneered the use of a setscrew to control the depth of sear engagement....it's another of the "tricks" that will make a huge difference in pull weight, but also safety....
you may want to try my trigger return spring option.... it doesn't make a big difference in actuall weight, maybe 1lb or so, but seems to really make a huge difference in smoothness of pull...
Thank you all for this info! After reading, re-reading, and studying this post I tried it for myself. I don't have a pull gauge so i don't know just how hard the trigger pull was but it was rediculously heavy :grrr: It took me about five times of dissasembeling and stoning and now i'd bet the trigger breaks at around 3 pounds! Each time I re assembled the rifle I banged the buttstock on the carpet 6-8 times hard enough that the bolt cycled nearly halfway back and the hammer stayed engaged with no difference in the trigger pull. I also pulled the trigger with the safety on and it would not fire, nor was there any diffeterce in the trigger after taking the saftey off. Thanks Cletus,this mod was easy and lots cheaper than a gunsmith. Also thanks to MorlyKrupt. BTW I grew up in Lorain,Oh
Great thread guys!!! I just bought a toolmakers vice off of ebay, and the other day I ordered some stones in different grits. I have a couple of extra hammers to practice on, so I'm going to give it a try! Thanks for all the valuable information!! Again, a Great thread! Quick question, the vice I bought off of ebay is a new 3" Phase II brand. My guess is that its an import, are they any good? I paid $15.50 for it, which I thought was really cheap. Was it?
Thanks,
Mike
Again, a Great thread! Quick question, the vice I bought off of ebay is a new 3" Phase II brand. My guess is that its an import, are they any good? I paid $15.50 for it, which I thought was really cheap. Was it?
Thanks,
Mike
MorlyKrupt
I received my 3" tool makers vice yesterday, and looking at the pictures of yours, mine looks identical. I was pretty impressed with mine for the money. Hopefully if I'm not too tired I'm going to try and re-work one of my spare hammers this morning when I get home from work. Thats right, not all of us have 8-4 jobs, some of us work rotating 12 hr. shifts. Well enough whining.
Mike
My experimentation with factory hammers backs up Morly's advice but shows that reducing the depth of the hammer notch will allow the hammer to trip if the trigger is pulled while the safety is engaged. So if you care about a safe trigger system don't reduce the depth of the hammer notch.
The hammer "trips" regardless of what work has been done to the engagement area. I've noticed that on countless "stock" 10/22s.
If you stone the angle you are stoning away a safe condition. The hammer must slightly cam back to retain a margin of safety. Don't take my word for it, take a sacrificial hammer and exaggerate your stoning angle. Eventually it'll trip when you blow on it, or drop the gun, and then its no good. I've tried this route and there is a definite point of no return, you can reduce the angle up to this point and then you immediately lose it when you go beyond it. So, when you get it just right and fail to reharden what you've just done, after a few dozen or a couple of hundred rounds you'll lose it.
The debate rages on... I have probably shot 500 rounds with no mishaps I have taken no more the .010" off of the radius to reduce the depth of notch and have not rehardened the hammer. Again I am not going for a 1# pull weight as I type this its @ the 3lb range and I am happy with that for a free trigger job. I also do not hunt so the gun is only loaded at the bench and unloaded before its removed from the bench.
Thanks, and Enjoy --- M~K
The hammer "trips" regardless of what work has been done to the engagement area. I've noticed that on countless "stock" 10/22s.
If you stone the angle you are stoning away a safe condition. The hammer must slightly cam back to retain a margin of safety. Don't take my word for it, take a sacrificial hammer and exaggerate your stoning angle. Eventually it'll trip when you blow on it, or drop the gun, and then its no good. I've tried this route and there is a definite point of no return, you can reduce the angle up to this point and then you immediately lose it when you go beyond it. So, when you get it just right and fail to reharden what you've just done, after a few dozen or a couple of hundred rounds you'll lose it.
changing the sear/hammer engagement to limit depth in any way creates the same condition....whether you stone the radius of the hammer, or use a setscrew.....either way, you're moving the contact up on the face of the sear, and not allowing the hammer notch to hook under the sear nose.... this extreme hooking is a large part of the terrible trigger on these guns, imho...that, and the terrible trigger return spring design....
if you read my original post, i recomend a 4deg negative rake be maintained for this very reason...
the case on all the parts i've worked w/ has been atleast .030" deep....i'm not removing near that amount.....i've put approx 1K ammo down range through my original mod hammer, and have seen no change in performance from it..... if it concerns you, you should reharden it....i did mine after i put a set screw in it also....
what method/mods do you use to improve the mil-spec trigger on these things???....these are the worst triggers since HK... i've seen no other method to get the safe and dependable pull i have using my simple mods w/o spending half a month's paycheck (social security ain't much)... i clearly state safety is up to the user, and these mods are for SPECIFIC applications, so YOU have to adjust the sear leg for the safety, and YOU have to keep it pointed in a safe direction, and YOU must keep your finger out of the triggerguard till ready to shoot....
i feel no need to suffer the morons that think i must use a trigger that will survive a 6' drop test to shoot from a bench......i'm not working for an agency w/ issued firearms anymore, and i don't use my personal firearms for "work"...i testify as an expert witness on firearms and police/military training, and will make my own decisions re: what is appropriate for me..
So right you are Cletus. People that think slamming a rifle butt on the ground hard enough to register on a ricter scale have it all wrong. Dropping from anything over a couple feet is really not going to happen unless you toos it in the air. Most people carry their rifles chest high and if they do trip, AND fall, it is not likely that they will turn loose of the weapon until near the ground. Can trigger be UNSAFE? Sure they can be and I have seen rifles fire when the bolt is closed with natural pressure. On the other side of that if care is taken you can achieve a excellent safe trigger that is still unsafe if the operator doesn't follow the simple rules of firearms ownership.
changing the sear/hammer engagement to limit depth in any way creates the same condition....whether you stone the radius of the hammer, or use a setscrew.....either way, you're moving the contact up on the face of the sear, and not allowing the hammer notch to hook under the sear nose.... this extreme hooking is a large part of the terrible trigger on these guns, imho...that, and the terrible trigger return spring design....
I can probably take .020 to .030 off the radius of the hammer and still have the nose of the sear completely within the height of the hammer spur. If you reduce the height of the sear nose slightly then you can go even further without problems.
Once you start changing the angle you increase the distance before release and induce creep.
I'm not talking about a 6' drop test, I'm talking about a bump test. Triggers should not be light enough to release when bumped regardless of what you use the firearm for. That creates an unsafe condition for you and everyone around you.
changing the sear/hammer engagement to limit depth in any way creates the same condition....whether you stone the radius of the hammer, or use a setscrew.....either way, you're moving the contact up on the face of the sear, and not allowing the hammer notch to hook under the sear nose.... this extreme hooking is a large part of the terrible trigger on these guns, imho...that, and the terrible trigger return spring design....
I can probably take .020 to .030 off the radius of the hammer and still have the nose of the sear completely within the height of the hammer spur. If you reduce the height of the sear nose slightly then you can go even further without problems.
Once you start changing the angle you increase the distance before release and induce creep.
I'm not talking about a 6' drop test, I'm talking about a bump test. Triggers should not be light enough to release when bumped regardless of what you use the firearm for. That creates an unsafe condition for you and everyone around you.
well, your first sentence tells it all "i can PROBABLY"....... why don't you try doing this mod before you tell what i'm doin won't work...myself, and way too many folks around here have used these mods to produce fabulous triggers w/o any of the problems you predict from your armchair.........if you don't move the hook up onto the face of the sear, just what was the point in even pulling it out???...the extreme negative rake on the hammer notch is hookin under the cut on the face of the trigger... i don't see how you've done anything for the triggerpull but cause roll off and callin that "no creep"
please explain how changing the angle from a negative 10deg to a negative 4deg increases the length of pull and introduces "creep"???... the notch is still the same depth, and it's the same sear, so just what has changed that effects how far the sear has to drop to release the hammer??... the only thing that you will feel now is the sear moving, where before it made the huge JUMP completely past the sear nose.... that huge JUMP is the source of the horrendous pull needed to fire these...... anyone that rounds off the top of their sear is a moron!!!....that's called "introducing roll off" into the pull, and will cause the hammer notch to eat itself as it bears on the sear top.....i've considered that a sure sign of a gun "hack" since i attended my 1st "official" gunsmithing school in '74
cletus
anytime you have a mod that you think works, why don't you post it for others to share????
Cletus, you know I am on the same page with you here!
Lets look at this another way. If you have a 1lb. 4 oz. trigger, like my lowest stock trigger group, and you have a 10 degree angle. Your engagement for this trigger weight would be approx. .002 to .005". With a 0 degree angle, same weight trigger can be accomplished with around .010" to .015" of engagement.
The latter trigger would automatically be much safer as the engagment can be larger than the tiny radius on the tip of the sear. My trigger group fired at least 2000 rds. without one failure. The only time it has given me any trouble is when I glass bedded the rifle and I put a bind on the trigger group and it wouldn't reset reliably. I have fixed the bedding problem and it is back to its reliable self. It will pass a 12" drop test with no problems at all.
Saying that this stoning method is somehow unsafe or wrong is just silly. My triggers are as safe as I am! My 1 lb. VQ trigger will also pass the 12" drop test as well and it resets flawlessly.
The safety works by being trapped between the button and the radius of the hammer behind the notch. If the saftey is ground correctly, then a .005" notch depth will easily stop the sear from letting the hammer rotate by the sear to fire the rifle. If you shorten the hammer notch and it fires with the safety on, follow Cletus' advice and peen the saftey tab on the sear a little and then file it until it has no slop with the safety on and hammer cocked. It is a no brainer.
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