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Old 11-15-2019, 11:05 AM
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What is this 4 MOA standard?



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As you will see in the picture below, that “4” MOA standard is truly a misnomer.

The targets by scoring ring at the WIDEST points in MOA for 25 Meters (approximate)

Standing:
3 Ring: 33 MOA
4 Ring: 26 MOA
5 Ring: 17 MOA
V Ring: 5 MOA

Seated:
3 Ring: 17 MOA
4 Ring: 13 MOA
5 Ring: 8 MOA
V Ring: 2 MOA

Rapid Prone:
3 Ring: 10 MOA
4 Ring: 8 MOA
5 Ring: 5 MOA
V Ring: 1 MOA

Slow Prone:
5 Ring: 8 MOA
4 Ring: 6 MOA
5 Ring: 4 MOA
V Ring: 1 MOA

I’ve outlined this to bring some realism to that statement in Appleseed that they are making 4 MOA Rifleman.

That is truly not the case, UNLESS….you are holding at least the 5 ring standing, and mostly the V ring thru the rest of the course of fire.

A quick glance at the targets shape presents yet another issue when accurately depicting a shooters capability, the only circle on these targets is the V ring.
I wish Appleseed someday would swap targets to circle targets. I am often times baffled as to why they continue to use the silhouettes that the military trains with. Appleseed is not a militia, that is clearly stated at every event. But, maybe the cost of printing the targets is too much to bear? The silhouettes do resemble a human target….that is undeniable. Circle targets definitely are easier to score and give a much better representation of a shooters skill level.

I challenge anyone reading this, to look at your own personal AQT targets performance and question by position, what your true hold is?

A perfect score on the AQT is a 250……so that is all 5 ring shooting, lets assume it was all 5’s with no V’s. That would be an average of 8.5 MOA shooting. A perfect score!

All V’s perfect 250 would be 2.25 MOA shooting, that is pretty awesome!
The only thing 4 MOA on the Appleseed targets is the 5 ring for slow prone.
I also feel, that the 210 minimum score for qualification can give one a false sense of confidence. I know this was the case for me when I entered NRA/CMP high power rifle competition, especially for the standing stage, where a sling is not allowed to be used at all for support.

True, the mission of Appleseed is not to teach people how to shoot, it is to give lessons on the history of the birth of this great nation, get people off the couch and involved in the political process. But make no mistake about it, the “bait” to get people to hear them lessons/stories is marksmanship training. That is why the preponderance of people attend Appleseed events. I’d bet that they could do away with the history lessons in their entirety and offer baking lessons instead, people would still show up for the marksmanship!

To the readers of this post, that are still reading. I’d caution you to be mindful that the only requirement to become an Appleseed instructor is that they have had to score a minimum of 210 on the AQT, and have attended at least 2 events, then “Ask” to become an instructor.

The reason I mention the above, is the instruction one receives is only going to be as good as that volunteer instructor can be. Many instructors (I know this for a fact) cannot regularly shoot a minimum qualifying score on the AQT. Conversely, many instructors can absolutely provide SOLID and FUNDAMENTAL instruction, and can actually demonstrate what they are teaching in live fire.

You may be an Appleseed attendee that has not been able to qualify yet, think about this.......could it possibly be because you are not receiving the best instruction? In school the failure of a student can sometimes be attributed to the instructor.

So, maybe attend other events in other areas. Maybe branch out and check out what the CMP or NRA have to offer in terms of clinics. Appleseed events are surely priced fairly, but sometimes paying a little more is worth it.

I’m not bashing Appleseed here, although to some reading it may seem that way. I see immense value in Appleseed, but…..I also have witnessed Appleseed’s unwillingness to adapt to change. When I was an active instructor, I used to pose challenges to fellow instructors to “Re qualify”, many took me up on that challenge and many to this day have not.

My final word of caution, beware of the "innerwebz high masters", those that can profess for days on what they consider fundamental marksmanship. I refer to them as the “fudds”, they are out there. The problem with the “Fudds” is people actually will try and do what they are saying. That typically does not work out well. I have found on my own personal journey with marksmanship (and other things in life), one of the best things one can figure out is who to listen to, and who to ignore.

Those that can back it up with data/scores/personal experiences typically earn my attention.

R/
Chris
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:47 PM
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All of the Appleseed non-KD events I have attended have been shot at a 25 meter, rather than 25 yard range. There is a small but significant difference in accuracy requirements for score between the two.

If we assume that shooting to a 4 MOA standard means placing all hits including the extreme spread, within a circle that subtends no more than 4 minutes of angle, it is quite possible to shoot to a 4 MOA standard on Stage 4 of the AQT and still drop a good many points.

At 25 meters, 4 MOA subtends (4 x 1.047) x (27.34/100)" = 1.14". So a shooter could miss by up to .57" from their POA and still shoot to a 4 MOA standard. But because of the weird shape of the silhouettes and scoring zones on the AQT targets, it is possible to shoot Stage 4 of the AQT to a 4 MOA standard and still drop many points with "unlucky" misses.

Assuming a POA at the center of the "V" scoring ring, which seems a natural choice for POA, most low misses of .57" will fall within the "3" scoring zone. If one chooses a higher POA, such as the top of the "V" within the center ring as I have heard many suggest, 6 o'clock misses can still fall within the "3" zone, but misses high at a 45 degree angle to the left or right can now also fall within the "3" scoring zone. On Stage 4 misses in the "3" zone mean 4 dropped points per miss. So it is at least theoretically possible to shoot Stage 4 of the AQT at 25 meters to a 4 MOA standard even with a perfect rifle and perfect ammunition, and still drop up to 40 points on Stage 4 of the AQT, preventing the shooter from qualifying for Rifleman even with a near perfect score on the other three Stages.

Of course, one would have to be either extraordinarily unlucky, or a very consistent "misser" to accomplish this performance. But then, we have not even considered the lack of inherent accuracy of much 22lr ammunition, including that commonly used at AS events, the inherent inaccuracy of many stock 22lr barrels on the rifles commonly used at AS, or the inaccuracy that a not quite precisely zeroed rifle scope might present, all of which will add a bit of inaccuracy to that of the shooter's ability to hold steady.

Last edited by pblanc; 11-15-2019 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:44 PM
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As long as I have been involved with Appleseed, there have been very few shoots, that I didn't get a chance to shoot. I always feel compelled to shoot, I feel I have to demonstrate, that I can talk the talk and walk the walk. I've not failed since 2009, when I started volunteering.

I'm not a full instructor, probably never will be, the roll I have taken on, has been pretty much a coach and mentor.

All you have said above Navybowhunter, is spot on.
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Old 11-16-2019, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGhillemohr View Post
As long as I have been involved with Appleseed, there have been very few shoots, that I didn't get a chance to shoot. I always feel compelled to shoot, I feel I have to demonstrate, that I can talk the talk and walk the walk. I've not failed since 2009, when I started volunteering.



I'm not a full instructor, probably never will be, the roll I have taken on, has been pretty much a coach and mentor.



All you have said above Navybowhunter, is spot on.
Having not met you personally, I would definitely place you in the "non Fudd" category. I know from your postings and accomplishments that you can demonstrate what you teach.

The problem is that a great amount of the instructors likely cannot proficiently demonstrate what they teach.

I'd be interested on your thoughts Mac on circle targets, wonder why they haven't moved to them?

R/
Chris

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Old 11-16-2019, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navybowhunter View Post
Having not met you personally, I would definitely place you in the "non Fudd" category. I know from your postings and accomplishments that you can demonstrate what you teach.

The problem is that a great amount of the instructors likely cannot proficiently demonstrate what they teach.

I'd be interested on your thoughts Mac on circle targets, wonder why they haven't moved to them?

R/
Chris

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Thanks, rifle marksmanship means a lot to me, coming from you, I know it's a compliment!

What I have witnessed, some of the instructors, who have been given the Orange Hat, their main goal, is to go from orange to red, then green. Just to go through the steps to earn the coveted Green Hat, as quickly as possible! Seems that there is no thought given to personal marksmanship ability or continual improvement. I think there should be a higher marksmanship standard than a 210, that should be applied to all instructors. Maybe the 210, is fine for Orange Hats in the beginning, but should be higher for red and green.

I personally think, once the "AQT Grind" begins, all instructors, should take a spot on the line and shoot!

As far as the circle shaped targets, like we shoot in High Power, I doubt we will ever go to those type targets, because that is what Fred decided we would use and that is pretty well written in stone! The High Power targets, do require a higher standard of marksmanship if you are speaking of ranks, Marksman, Sharp Shooter, Expert,
Master and High Master.

I have probably written more than I should have here, might get me in hot water! I do believe in the program, I support it as much as I can in my state.
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Old 11-16-2019, 11:11 AM
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I have attended a number of 25 meter Appleseed events and some comparable rimfire rifle events held by Revere's Riders.

Although the goal of becoming a shooter capable of 4 MOA accuracy is often mentioned at AS events, I have never gotten the impression that any AS instructor was suggesting that level of accuracy as a goal across the board, in all positions. The goal that is frequently given is for a shooter to be able to put 5 or more shots into a 1 inch square or a 1" circle, but I was always given to understand, as I believe other participants were, that goal applied only to shooting slow fire prone with a sling.

A goal of being able to shoot to 4 MOA accuracy regardless of position would be totally unrealistic for a relatively new shooter and probably most experienced ones as well. In rimfire sporter competition the rapid and slow fire offhand stages are shot at 25 yard range and the 10 ring is 1.75" in diameter, approximately equal to the subtension of 6 MOA. And since touches count, it would be possible to shoot a group slightly wider than 6 MOA and still score all 10's. A well-centered group subtending 4 MOA would certainly be a perfect score on the offhand stages in rimfire sporter competition.

The diameter of the 10 ring on the NRA SR rifle target used at 200 yards in high power competition is 7 inches, again subtending 3.5 MOA, the 13" diameter 9 ring subtends 6.5 MOA and once again, touches count. So the ability to consistently shoot with 4 MOA accuracy would result in pretty high scores for the standing stage in NRA high power as well, with mostly 10s and a few 9s.

I do agree that some of the rifle marksmanship instruction given at AS events is rather too dogmatic and in some cases, rather dated. Some of the instruction on steady hold factors aligns itself rather too rigidly to the old school Army marksmanship training with high power 30 caliber rifles shooting Springfield 30.06 or 308 Win ammunition. The silhouette targets used by AS are a throwback to that training as well. Some instructors have introduced a bit more flexibility in their instruction, particularly for standing form, introducing posture, shooting arm position, and support arm and hand positions more aligned with what top high power shooters are now routinely using, shooting lighter recoiling .223 Rem chambered rifles.

In my particular State, many of the best instructors formerly with the AS program have broken off to form Revere's Riders so as to be able to introduce a bit more flexibility in rifle (and pistol) marksmanship training. But there are still good Appleseed instructors here. Some of them will shoot at least one AQT during an event but others do not. But the ones that do not with whom I am most familiar are members of my local rifle club. I have shot with them and know what they are capable of. Their marksmanship is certainly good enough to consistently qualify, and their level of instruction is good, within the constraints imposed by Appleseed dogma.

Last edited by pblanc; 11-16-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGhillemohr View Post

I think there should be a higher marksmanship standard than a 210, that should be applied to all instructors.



I personally think, once the "AQT Grind" begins, all instructors, should take a spot on the line and shoot!
Bingo! Spot on!

Raise the bar for instructor qualifications!

Maybe separate the cooks from the Rifleman, or....LOL the "history professors from the Rifleman"!

I believe that is exactly what would make better instructors, and result in higher qualification numbers from attendees! It would also likely result in higher attendance rates.

I've very rarely seen an instructor shoot during an event. But, I do agree, once that grind commences, everyone should be shooting if there are spaces/spots available.

Actually witnessing an instructor shoot "live fire" at a squares target would be awesome as well, I've never seen that. How cool would that be, an instructor demonstrating steady hold factors, and calling their shots! Wow!

Good stuff.....


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Old 11-18-2019, 10:31 AM
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The above posts raise a couple of thoughts:

The silhouette targets are taken directly from the Army Qualification Test dating back to the 1940s (or maybe earlier). You don't have to be a "militia" to use and honor the tradition of American military marksmanship expressed in the AQT. I see no reason to infer that using this tradition connects Appleseed to the current use of the word "militia" in a politicized sense.

For students, a 210 is a standard that is reasonably attainable, and matches the original AQT's required score for an Expert classification in Basic Training.

Four MOA as the standard also comes from shooting M1s while defending freedom. A man-sized target 20" wide is 4 MOA at 500 yards. Because of the double points in Stage 4, it is very hard to make Rifleman if one can't consistently shoot to that standard.

At an event, while students are shooting the instructors act as RSOs to keep the students safe. Since many students are beginners or have come to the program with bad habits from previous malinstruction, safety requires that instructors work vigilantly in that capacity during every stage. Only if the event is truly overstaffed would I allow an instructor to join the line.

Incorporating live fire demonstration while teaching is a very interesting idea which I would like to explore, provided that time management is good enough to make it work within the schedule.

I recommend that every Shoot Boss, if possible, conduct an Instructor Boot Camp at least annually to ensure that both shooting and teaching skills are kept at the professional level expected of a full Instructor.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:14 PM
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FiremanBob, I did not mean all instructors shoot at the same time, just that when the "grind" begins, all instructors should find the opportunity to shoot, when possible.

In my case, I will usually have the chance to shoot at least a couple of them. I usually will shoot next to someone who is struggling. At some events, if it is known that the event will be well staffed with instructors, I will pay for a spot on the line and shoot with the students. The Green Hat, always indicates who I am, so that they know an instructor is among them.

I think it's good to set a good example, in words and deeds.

By the way, I like the old Army AQT targets, been shooting them a long time, even before Appleseed was started by Fred.

Last edited by MacGhillemohr; 11-18-2019 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:42 PM
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About the Appleseed 4 MOA standard. I don't intend to be disrespectful, but I do want people to understand that it is a real thing.

There are 3 Appleseed targets. If you go to an Appleseed event, the target you will shoot at the most on the first day consists of 5 black 1" squares. 1" is 4 MOA at 25 yards.

When 2 or 3 students are consistently getting their shots to mostly fall inside a square, the class is felt to be ready to move onto the green practice target where they study other important skills necessary to shoot a Rifleman's score on the AQT.

Unless the crown has been wrecked or there is some other critical malfunction, a box stock Ruger 10/22 using CCI Standard Velocity is capable of shooting 4 MOA.
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Old 12-12-2019, 08:28 AM
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With an Appleseed in mind, that we have coming up next month, I dusted off a couple of my rimfires and shot a couple of AQT's.

Shooting my home build Tactical Solutions with 24 inch Green Mountain barrel and Kidd Supergrade. I believe in being prepared to shoot good scores and back up my advice to the students attending. Scores were 250, then a 243. If they think it's worth paying their money and travelling to the event, we should be prepared to back up what we are teaching. The 243 was shot with my back up rifle, Kidd Supergrade. Not quite used to the lighter barrel of this rifle, doesn't hang like the Tactical Solutions with 24 heavy barrel, the Kidd rifles trigger is a tad lighter too.

Last edited by MacGhillemohr; 12-12-2019 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 12-13-2019, 09:05 AM
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Very nice shooting! Looks like that last shot almost put you down by 2 points. 😉 I can't tell you how many times I've done that: shoot really nice, then get nervous, psych myself out, and screw up the last shot. 🙂
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Old 12-13-2019, 10:22 AM
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Very nice shooting! Looks like that last shot almost put you down by 2 points. 😉 I can't tell you how many times I've done that: shoot really nice, then get nervous, psych myself out, and screw up the last shot. 🙂
Almost, but it broke the line, so I'll take it! The 250 patch I earned a couple of years ago at a Fathers Day shoot, was similar, but on the sitting I think. Broke the line, so it counts! Hooahh!

I shot that 400 yard stage in one minute, twenty seconds! I should slow down!
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:43 PM
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Still, nice shooting.
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