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  #61  
Old 01-01-2007, 08:08 PM
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Just to keep the thread going, here is my 69 Dual Sight. There were just over 2,000 69 Dual Sights and 697s produced. The 697 is the factory scoped 69A.
This is a very early one and has seen service in the UK. The scope is a Winchester 8X


Last edited by wundudnee; 01-01-2007 at 08:18 PM.
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  #62  
Old 01-01-2007, 08:23 PM
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Whoa, outstanding! I have a 69 but not as unique as yours, thanks for sharing with those who can appreciate them!
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  #63  
Old 01-02-2007, 11:13 AM
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Good Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitoban View Post


Why isn't this wonderful thread a sticky?

Just now I requested this to be a sticky...we will see if ADMIN gets er' done!
FANTASTIC collections....WOW!
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  #64  
Old 01-02-2007, 12:24 PM
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69 dual sight-and then some...

Wundudnee's terrific dual sighted 69 is unusual in two other respects: the 69 could be ordered with the 97A ramp front and the 32C open rear sight in place of the 96B peep rear (order# G6902R in the 1938 catalog), an option which makes sense when a scope was going to be on the rifle. It also has the rarer (but correct) rear scope mount on the receiver ring instead of on the barrel. And it has the full complement of British proofs, no doubt-which I think are fascinating in their complexity. Now the big question: why is it I never find one of these? -Asa
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  #65  
Old 01-02-2007, 12:38 PM
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Here are my 94/22's, not as fancy or cool as many of the beautiful rifles already posted but they trip my fancy.

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  #66  
Old 01-02-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK View Post
Here are my 94/22's, not as fancy or cool as many of the beautiful rifles already posted but they trip my fancy.

Hmmm, $50,000 dollars worth of Winchesters!! NICE!!!!!
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  #67  
Old 01-02-2007, 03:59 PM
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nice levers, any of them mags?

kevin in NH thoes two 71s you just brought home. sweet
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  #68  
Old 01-02-2007, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynine View Post
I don't particularily collect Winchesters, but I've drug a few home. Here's a few of my siblings.



The Top is a 1st Type Mdl 1885 High Wall in .22SH

The Middle one is a 3rd Type Mdl 1885 Low Wall Winder in .22LR (Original)

The Bottom one is another 3rd Type Mdl 1885 Low Wall Winder in .22SH


Here's a close up of the .22LR roll markings. I added it here because I looked for one of these for many years and all the "experts" looked at me like I was an idiot for asking because "everyone knows" that they didn't make Winders in .22LR :-)




LDHare
Hello,

Not true... your top (high-wall) Winder Musket is a Second variation, and it was made sometime between December 1911 - mid-year 1918 (with a serial number, I can tell you which specific year it was made). The First variation Winder Muskets have twin barrel bands and no finger groove in the forestock.

Your two low-wall Winder Muskets are Model 87s, and Winchester did indeed make a few hundred of them in 22 Long R. (April - May of 1919). However, none of them were ever originally shipped to the Springfield Armory, and they should not have the "U S" and flaming ordnance bomb stamped on them. All of the martially marked Model 87s were chambered for 22 Short. Now, if you want to go ultra rare, there were at least (2) Model 87s Winders that were made up as centerfire 25-20 WCFs.

Bert

Last edited by Bert H.; 01-02-2007 at 04:49 PM.
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  #69  
Old 01-02-2007, 04:35 PM
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Thanks guys, there are two magnums, the third from the left is a 1973 magnum and the last one is a 1982 XTR magnum.

1996 22lr Trapper
1973 22lr
1973 Mag
2001 22lr
2003 17HMR
1982 Mag
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  #70  
Old 01-02-2007, 06:12 PM
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Bert H:

I stand corrected with respect to my high wall. It is indeed what collectors call a 2nd Type Mdl 1885. It's been awhile since I playes with these and I should have checked my records more carefully before I posted these photos.

You're also correct in that the two low walls are known by collectors, and internal Winchester documents, as Mdl 1887s, however some of the one's chambered for .22 Long Rifle were indeed martially marked. If you look carefully at the close up of the tang on mine, you will see the "U S flaming bomb" roll mark. In an October, 1995 issue of 'Arms of Man" article written by John Campbell, titled "Winchester's Single-shot Muskets", he states:

"It's interesting to note that the Director of Civilian Marksmanship announced the availability of the new Model 87 Muskets, chambered for the .22 Long Rifle, in Feburary 1924."

There's another article in the American Rifleman, that also refers to these Winder Muskets chambered in .22 Long Rifle. In 1932 R.F. Sedgley advertised them as available in .22 Hornet and .22LR with customized stocks, etc. and apparently Winchester also would provide them in both .22 Hornet and 25-20 WCF as you noted.


Actually, Bert we corrisponded about these two Mdl 1887 Winder Third Type Muskets back in January, 2005 were you said:

Third Variation - low-wall frame, coil spring action
> > (not offered in
> > Takedown), rear sight (Lyman No. 53) mounted on the
> > right-hand side of the
> > frame with four screws. The forestock is identical
> > to the Second variation
> > but shortly after production began, a transverse
> > band screw was used to
> > retain the barrel band instead of a spring clip (the
> > change occurred circa
> > May 1918). The production period was from Jan 1918
> > to June of 1920 (when
> > all production of the Model 1885 Single-shot
> > ceased), and an estimated total
> > of 12,735 were made. The vast majority of this
> > variation will be found
> > chambered for the 22 SHORT cartridge, with
> > approximately only 5% of the
> > total production being chambered for the 22 LONG R.
> > There were a very scant
> > few that were chambered for the 22 LONG, and at
> > least two that were
> > chambered for the 25-20 W.C.F. centerfire cartridge.
> > The Third Variation
> > was cataloged and listed by Winchester as the “Model
> > 87” for an unknown
> > reason, but it is a Model 1885 in all respects.
> >
> > The Third Model is the only confirmed variation that
> > was manufactured
> > specifically for the U.S. Government. Winchester
> > signed a contract with the
> > U.S. Army in late 1917, and the first order (for
> > 2,000) was let on December
> > 5th, 1917. Actual production began in early January
> > of 1918. Of the 12,735
> > estimated to have been made, approximately 11,800 of
> > them were shipped to
> > the U. S. Army's Springfield armory. Those that
> > were accepted were stamped
> > with "U S" and a flaming ordnance bomb on the
> > upper tang directly behind
> > the hammer. According to my research, many of those
> > martially marked Model
> > 87s ended up in National Guard units, College and
> > High-school ROTC units,
> > Railroads, and USCG stations.


Both of these Mdl 1887 Muskets should be in your data base. Thanks for information.


Regards:


LDHare


PS: When are you going to publish your book on these Winder Muskets? Let me know and I'll jump on the advanced sales list.

Last edited by kaynine; 01-02-2007 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Added new information
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  #71  
Old 01-02-2007, 06:26 PM
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My favorite Wini pic. 52C.

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  #72  
Old 01-02-2007, 07:59 PM
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Beautiful. Congradulations, all of you. All prestine examples of what a quality rifle should be. I really like that model 99 with the thumb trigger. I don't think they made too many of those.
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  #73  
Old 01-02-2007, 11:02 PM
Bert H.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynine View Post
Bert H:

I stand corrected with respect to my high wall. It is indeed what collectors call a 2nd Type Mdl 1885. It's been awhile since I playes with these and I should have checked my records more carefully before I posted these photos.

You're also correct in that the two low walls are known by collectors, and internal Winchester documents, as Mdl 1887s, however some of the one's chambered for .22 Long Rifle were indeed martially marked. If you look carefully at the close up of the tang on mine, you will see the "U S flaming bomb" roll mark. In an October, 1995 issue of 'Arms of Man" article written by John Campbell, titled "Winchester's Single-shot Muskets", he states:

"It's interesting to note that the Director of Civilian Marksmanship announced the availability of the new Model 87 Muskets, chambered for the .22 Long Rifle, in Feburary 1924."

There's another article in the American Rifleman, that also refers to these Winder Muskets chambered in .22 Long Rifle. In 1932 R.F. Sedgley advertised them as available in .22 Hornet and .22LR with customized stocks, etc. and apparently Winchester also would provide them in both .22 Hornet and 25-20 WCF as you noted.


Actually, Bert we corrisponded about these two Mdl 1887 Winder Third Type Muskets back in January, 2005 were you said:

"Third Variation - low-wall frame, coil spring action (not offered in Takedown), rear sight (Lyman No. 53) mounted on the right-hand side of the frame with four screws. The forestock is identical to the Second variation but shortly after production began, a transverse band screw was used to retain the barrel band instead of a spring clip (the change occurred circa May 1918). The production period was from Jan 1918 to June of 1920 (when all production of the Model 1885 Single-shot ceased), and an estimated total of 12,735 were made. The vast majority of this variation will be found chambered for the 22 SHORT cartridge, with approximately only 5% of the total production being chambered for the 22 LONG R. There were a very scant few that were chambered for the 22 LONG, and at least two that were chambered for the 25-20 W.C.F. centerfire cartridge.

The Third Variation was cataloged and listed by Winchester as the “Model 87” for an unknown reason, but it is a Model 1885 in all respects.

The Third Model is the only confirmed variation that was manufactured specifically for the U.S. Government. Winchester signed a contract with the U.S. Army in late 1917, and the first order (for 2,000) was let on December 5th, 1917. Actual production began in early January of 1918. Of the 12,735 estimated to have been made, approximately 11,800 of them were shipped to the U. S. Army's Springfield armory. Those that were accepted were stamped with "U S" and a flaming ordnance bomb on the upper tang directly behind the hammer. According to my research, many of those martially marked Model 87s ended up in National Guard units, College and High-school ROTC units, Railroads, and USCG stations."


Both of these Mdl 1887 Muskets should be in your data base. Thanks for information.


Regards:


LDHare


PS: When are you going to publish your book on these Winder Muskets? Let me know and I'll jump on the advanced sales list.
Hello Laurence,

Yes, I do have the information on both of your Model 87 Winders, but it must have slipped past me that serial 1314xx was a 22 Long R. (I had it in my database as a 22 Short). I do not have the information on your high-wall Winder Musket though, and I would very much appreciate having it as well.

Since we last corresponded, I have uncovered quite a bit of additional information. A fair bit of it came from Herb Houze's book "To The Dreams Of Youth", and the remainder I obtained in a detailed review of the available records and information at the McCracken Research Library int the Cody Museum. The information in Herb's very fine reference book and my own personal research strongly suggests that none of the few 22 LR Model 87s were ever delivered to the Springfield Armory (refer to the last paragraph on page 125).

As I have previously mentioned (and confirmed), Winchester ceased regular production of the Model 87 in June of 1920. There were a few hundred parts clean guns made up through 1923, and then all remaining parts were sold to R.F. Sedgley. The Model 1885s assembled by Sedgley were all high-walls. According to the records compiled by the Springfield Research Service, the U.S. Goverment began to sell off all of the Model 87s in 1922 via the DCM. I am not sure where John Campbell came up with the information for the 1995 article you mention, but I do not agree with it, and neither does the Springfield Research Service.

Winchester never offered the Model 87 Winder Musket in 22 Hornet. Winchester did make (beginning in September of 1931) a 26-inch No. 3 round (nickel steel) replacement barrel for the high-wall sporting rifle in 22 Hornet. I have a copy of the original factory blueprint drawing, and it states that it could be provided to customers who send their Model 1885 Sporting Rifle back to the factory to be rebarreled. It was not an option for the non-heat treated Winder Muskets.

As for my reference book, I still have a lot of research to do before I publish it. That said, I willingly share all of the information I have acquired with anyone who is interested and/or those who share information on their personal Winder Muskets.

Please drop me an email at [email protected], and I will send you an updated survey form (for your 2nd Model Winder).

Best wishes,
Bert

Last edited by Bert H.; 01-02-2007 at 11:09 PM.
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  #74  
Old 01-03-2007, 10:05 PM
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69A Details

My first stab at French Checkering on an already redone rifle.

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  #75  
Old 01-03-2007, 11:38 PM
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The first part of next week I will dig out some more first time on the net winchester .22s

I am too busy right now i've been buying hiefer calves and hauling em home

rafter-7
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