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The Triple Crown of Rimfire

6K views 33 replies 14 participants last post by  52DH&R12 
#1 ·
The Triple Crown of Rimfire is schedule for the week of 25 thur 30 May 2021.

I would like to make a proposal to change the IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown from the three targets of IR 50/50 Unlimited, to three targets of IR 50/50 10 shot scoring.

The IR 50/50 "unlimited" portion has always been the most feared portion of the Triple Crown. If one has one bad shot it drops his overall score tremendously.

I don't think anyone has ever won the Triple Crown that shot a 749 agg. on the IR 50/50 portion. It is simply the nature of the IR 50/50 unlimited scoring system.

On the other hand the 10 Shot scoring system rewards absolute accuracy without penalizing one or two bad shots just as ARA and PSL does.

In addition the 10 Shot scoring system allows one to come back from a poor target by having so much upside for an outstanding performance.

This is not my original idea. Bill Calfee came up with it.

I feel so strongly that it will improve the Triple Crown I'm advocating here.

Paul Tolvstad and Jason Frymier are in a position to affect this change.

If you support this idea please respond here. Maybe we can convince Paul and Jason it is time for a change.

TKH
 
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#5 ·
Turbosam,

Apparently I didn't make my point. Please let me try again.

IR 50/50 unlimited scoring allows many people to shoot a three target agg. of 750. Three 250s. The top 6-10 shooters at the Triple Crown do it every year.

The problem is a 250 1X target beats a 249 24X target. In other words the most precision target does not always win with IR 50/50 unlimited scoring.

Many shooters realize this and know if they shoot one 9 they are most likely out of it.

That one shot could be a bad round, or your own fault most of the time you will never know.

With IR 50/50 10 shot scoring the most precision target always wins. More like the ARA and PSL.

In ARA and PSL the best shooters are working with scores in the 2350 plus range. The best they can do if they are really on their game is 2500. That is their possible upside.

On the other hand the best 10-shot shooters are shooting 90-120 point targets.

In 10 shot, a shooter really on his game has the possibility to shoot a 250 target that would make up a lot of ground. Said another way in 10 shot you are not ever out of it until the last target is scored.

The IR 50/50 unlimited portion of the Triple Crown is always shot last and it is the most feared part of the competition.

If you are doing well on the first two portions, one bad round can take you right out of it. Where as a 2450 PSL or ARA target probably wouldn't hurt your overall finish too much.

But if you shoot a 749 IR 50/50 unlimited score you drop below everyone that shot 750's. And again that might be 6 to 10 places.

TKH
 
#9 ·
I'm confused as to your point and motivation.

I'm guessing you haven't shot much, ARA, PSL, or IR 50/50 10-shot.

On the other hand, you seem to have some knowledge of IR 50/50 targets.

If so, you should understand scoring rules have nothing to do with examples of what may happen, or the odds of them happening.

If that is beyond your understanding, I can't be of much help.

TKH
 
#14 · (Edited)
Anyone who has shot a few IR50/50 matches have likely lost to someone who shot a higher score with a lower X count. That's the game and them's the breaks. I guess the 2nd (or 3rd) place shooter shouldn't have missed the ten ring. When I went to my first IR50/50 3 Gun Nationals back in 2010. Jim Pepper won the 3 Gun. I came in second by 2Xs and Mel Eck came in third, one point behind Jim and I but with a higher X count than Jim and I.

Your guru Mr. Calfee was singing a different tune back then. He wasn't saying then that Mel Eck should have won or was the better shooter blah blah blah. No, he said that Jim Pepper (The Tennessee Stud) "dominated" the field. I remember thinking that a 2X or a 1 point differential out of 1500 points was a mighty thin domination. But such was the acrimonious rhetoric of rimfire benchrest at the time.

The IR50/50 game is what it is. It rewards the shooter who can, first, consistently achieve hitting the .250" 10 ring and, second, who then can hit that .031" X dot as the tie breaker. It's a very common way of scoring rifle and pistol matches.

The Triple Crown was meant to be a way of combining the 3 most common rimfire benchrest games (ARA, IR50/50 & PSL) The winner is the shooter who can achieve the highest score of those 3 different targets. That's the match. Choose to shoot it or not, but stop trying to massage it to your advantage or liking or whining about losing it by a dropped point. When I drove home with Mel Eck after he lost in 2010 by 1 point despite having a better X count than the deserving winner, there was not one whine out of him. We both took our loss to Jim like big boys. That match, Jim was the better shooter, by just a whisker.
 
#15 ·
I see you still aren't discussing the merits of the thread proposal. Just throwing out old painful memories and making accusations about topics no one has mentioned.

If you had just a little insight you would see you are still whining about losing.

The evidence is you quit and never came back.

Perhaps if the match was scored differently you may not have left with the same sour taste.

Think about it!

TKH
 
#17 ·
Turbosam,

I'm not sure why you think the 10-shot targets would favor me but I'm flattered.

I always push for change. Change brings progress. If you let things stagnate they die. Just look at attendance and not just the corvid year.

I understand change itself is painful, but it is worthwhile.

I certainly agree each person has the right to choose to shoot the Triple Crown or not but those that do not, should not color the discussion of how it is shot.

With that being said I now understand there is little interest in the Triple Crown on this board and will stop posting about it here. So take your last shots and expect no response.

TKH
 
#18 · (Edited)
Tony, your assessment of my BR involvement is a bit off. I continued to shoot for 6 more years after shooting that 3 Gun National in 2010. I stopped in 2016 after attaining the goals I set for myself. I also missed shooting skeet and trap, (my first shooting interest) and wanted to get back to doing that. In fact, my last National event was the IR50/50 Unlimited in 2015. I won that event and beat you in the yard event, (you didn't shoot the meters event) as I recall. That left a pretty sweet taste.

What's funny is in the 5 years I've been away people are still whining and perseverating about the same things.
 
#19 ·
I wish I could attend the TC week, its just not in the cards with work. Its a great event & you'll meet some great people you otherwise wouldn't in some locales, especially me.
Having said that I'd thought about Tony's goal & feel like it would be good for all shooters, not just those at the top. You stand to make up significant ground shooting 10 shot. I think it worth trying for the same points he's mentioned.
I can't help but wonder if some of the responses he's got on this & other boards are simply reacting/replying to the post without actually trying to understand it 1st?
I'm sure some will think this post is some sort of fanboy of Tony's & to some extent thats correct, & why wouldn't you(I) be? I've never met anyone more passionate about the sport in all disciplines, willing to help ANYONE in any way possible, & all around great guy. He of all people wouldn't suggest anything that would tarnish the event or more importantly the sport. He means well folks!
As to the whole argument about the rest, well, I get it. It annoys me too hearing about it, but that wasn't the posts intent.
In the end I'd be happy to shoot whatever you put in front of me as I'm sure most are, because for me its more about the people than the event itself. Hope to get back there sometime.

Keith
 
#20 ·
it wasn't tony's idea. it was the great divider. tony was just his mouthpiece.

as long as we hide it under the guise of advancing rimfire accuracy, we can ask for anything.

still trying to figure out how switching to a target that gives a second chance for success actually advances rimfire accuracy.
 
#21 ·
OK here's the viewpoint of a victim of IR/50. Several years ago I shot a 250 on the first IR target at the Triple Crown that moved me into the top 5 in the overall results. Targets 2 and 3 dropped me like the proverbial rock. Last year was the same deal except that I had 250's on the first two IR targets then a 247 on target 3 did me in. ARA and PSL you mostly just get beat. IR/50 you mostly beat yourself. My vote is to leave things as they are. John Prince
 
#22 ·
Guys,

My motivation for the proposal has little to do with Bill Calfee. Yes, he made the suggestion and I know the "orange man bad syndrome" many seem to suffer from. But the suggestion has merit, well at least I thought so.

IR 50/50 is not doing well, attendance is down and dropping. I thought introducing more shooter to IR 50/50 10 shot may inject some enthusiasm.

I've heard many say they hate the IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown because of the dramatic effect it can have on your overall finish. I thought changing the targets to the 10-shot which is a pure accuracy target may help. That would make all 9 targets have an equal weigh in deciding the winner.

I'm like Keith, I don't really care what targets I shoot. I've shot them all and enjoy them all, but if changing the Triple Crown target to the 10 shot would help IR 50/50 I thought it was worth pushing, knowing full well the crap I would get over it.

If anyone can tell me why we can't get attendance at IR 50/50 events, especially the unlimited ones I would like to hear it. Thanks for your responses.

TKH
 
#29 ·
I think it runs ARA, PSL, and then the USBR.
All three of those are seriously difficult.

The IBS and IR50/50 are much easier to get a high score, but punching out all 25 X's is still very very difficult.

By the way, I believe the USBR target is know as the Green Monster.
I hope so, because that's what it say's on our ranges Championship Plaque which I designed.:yikes:


Smooth
 
#32 ·
Tough crowd

%%%%! Can't believe I read all that. But since I did, I'll put my 2 cents worth in even though it seems to be an unpopular opinion. I personally don't like the IR50 portion of the TC, as a matter of fact I'm not fond of IR50 at all and it's due to the scoring system. I have never shot a 10 shot match so no opinion there. The reason I don't like the scoring is as Tony said "one bad shot and your out" I can't afford to test and test and test ammo till I find the killer stuff it takes to shoot a 750 and Im not privy to early test lots or sponsored Ammo. I think most shooters are in the same boat with me. So I bring my best ammo to the match, two or three fliers per box and all then shoot my best, that's all I can do. Change or no change at the TC won't stop me from going but I still won't like that one or two fliers in my ammo will drag me down to mid pack or worse.
 
#34 ·
%%%%! Can't believe I read all that. But since I did, I'll put my 2 cents worth in even though it seems to be an unpopular opinion. I personally don't like the IR50 portion of the TC, as a matter of fact I'm not fond of IR50 at all and it's due to the scoring system. I have never shot a 10 shot match so no opinion there. The reason I don't like the scoring is as Tony said "one bad shot and your out" I can't afford to test and test and test ammo till I find the killer stuff it takes to shoot a 750 and I'm not privy to early test lots or sponsored Ammo. I think most shooters are in the same boat with me. So I bring my best ammo to the match, two or three fliers per box and all then shoot my best, that's all I can do. Change or no change at the TC won't stop me from going but I still won't like that one or two fliers in my ammo will drag me down to mid pack or worse.
Congratulations: One of the first responses I read where the poster has actually shot in the triple crown. Seems like all those that condemn it, don't shoot there. So wonder why it would matter to them ?? I have not shot at the TC either, so I have no dog in this fight. I have shot IR50/50 and 10 Shot. I like both, 10 shot is more forgiving, even though you have to hit the X to get any kind of score. The good thing is, if you shoot a bad shot, you can use that bull as a sighter for the next shot. Much better than swinging off to the side to shoot one, then have to move back to a scoring bull. I now approach every IR target as if it were 10 Shot, ( cannot use the miss for a sighter however ) it tends to make you a better shooter. As to the 10 score, it is a elusive thing. I have shot three of them, have pins for two of them to verify them.

The Triple Crown is like a triathlon, each set of targets is different, some are comfortable shooting one or two of them, but in the end someone is going to do well enough with all three to win. That is what determines the best overall shooter. The TC was conceived using all three of the sanctioned targets, ARA, PSL and IR50, this predated 10 Shot. If someone thinks it need to be changed, let the people that actually shoot and run the TC decide that.
 
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