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  #691  
Old 06-15-2019, 05:04 PM
jaia
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Aguila 22 Target 40 grain 22lr rated 1080 fps

CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair




2 ftf, extracted, rotated 120 degrees, bang on the second try



Visible swaging seams on some of the bullets.
Partial ridges on the sides and nose of the bullet.
Has to affect the aerodynamics.

Last edited by jaia; 06-15-2019 at 08:02 PM.
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  #692  
Old 06-15-2019, 05:08 PM
jaia
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CCI AR Tactical 40 grain CP 22lr rated 1200 fps

455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair



Close inspection of the bullet nose shows dents and dings and odd bumps on the surface.
Irregular bullet shapes don't help with producing repeatable trajectories.

Last edited by jaia; 06-15-2019 at 08:00 PM.
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  #693  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:40 AM
jaia
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My OCD kicked in.

Got to wondering: just how many boxes of ammo have been tested for the 50 at 200?

Would you believe 201? Yep, I counted them.

201 x 50 = 10050 shots fired and posted so far.

2 cases of rimfire down the tubes, ranging in price from 4 cents a round to a dollar a round.

Took a year to do it, and still more to go.
Who knew there were that many brands/types of rimfire out there?

If you have a 17 hm2 or a 5 mm, send some at 200 and post the results.
Neither of those in my collection of rifles.

Good thing I'm easily entertained.

Last edited by jaia; 06-18-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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  #694  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:47 PM
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Imo, this makes for an impressive database.
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  #695  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
My OCD kicked in.

Got to wondering: just how many boxes of ammo have been tested for the 50 at 200?

Would you believe 201? Yep, I counted them.

201 x 50 = 10050 shots fired and posted so far.

2 cases of rimfire down the tubes, ranging in price from 4 cents a round to a dollar a round.

Took a year to do it, and still more to go.
Who knew there were that many brands/types of rimfire out there?

If you have a 17 hm2 or a 5 mm, send some at 200 and post the results.
Neither of those in my collection of rifles.

Good thing I'm easily entertained.
So many brands , so little time .
LOL
I find your experiment to be very interesting and an informative read . Thanks for sharing! Kirby
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  #696  
Old 06-23-2019, 07:32 PM
jaia
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I've been digging and reading for several months now.
Ever since I sent 50 at 200 with Eley Contact and Eley Force.
Same bullets, one subsonic, one supersonic, similar results.
Started me questioning the effects of supersonic transition on the 22lr.
The only actual study done with the 22lr is this one...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zut...ew?usp=sharing

Page 11, Conclusions: paragraph 5...




What does that last line read?
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  #697  
Old 06-23-2019, 08:06 PM
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post


What does that last line read?
I can understand how limit cycle yaw would change retained velocity or wind sensitivity, but wouldn't a bullet that takes a persistent yaw in the last 50m of it's journey tend to "fly" in the direction of the yaw?

Does this mean the yaw always in the same direction?
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  #698  
Old 06-23-2019, 08:12 PM
jaia
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It means that yes, the transition produces a 1.8 degree yaw in the 22lr.
No tumbling, just a small amount of yaw, but the amount produced has "insignificant" effect
on accuracy when shooting high end match bullets at supersonic muzzle velocities.
Folks blaming the transition for the sloppy results using hi-v 22lr ammo,
are going to need to find another excuse for trajectory spread.
Me? I'd take a closer look at those cartridge defects and wind induced turbulence on the range.


The 22lr is a short, stubby, round nosed bullet.
1.8 degrees on a round nose isn't going to change the trajectory. Round nose, eh?
With a long, slender, tail heavy boat tail hollowpoint, that yaw will cause problems.

I've searched for studies using variations of supersonic/transonic/subsonic/trajectories/accuracy/ballistics.
Found reports on military ballistics testing on most styles and shapes of projectiles.
Everything from 9mm pistols to Howitzers. Only one report on the 22lr.

Last edited by jaia; 06-23-2019 at 08:30 PM.
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  #699  
Old 06-23-2019, 08:24 PM
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my read...

My read of the report is that Eley Tenex at 950 fps gave the best results in respect to cross winds. I think the powder has been burned up in the first 16 to 20 inches of barrel. After that friction slows the bullet down. A long barrel may slow the average standard velocity bullet down to the point where it drifts (deflects) less.

An experiment if anyone wants to do it. Shoot in the wind with the same ammo using different rifle barrel lengths and see if any trend shows.
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  #700  
Old 06-23-2019, 08:32 PM
jaia
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950 fps might have been the perfect mv for the test barrels harmonics.
Maybe...I don't know.


What I do get from the study, is the transition is not the real problem with hi-v 22lr.
Wind drift, yeah, supersonic speeds creates a skin of compressed air molecules around the bullet.
That would increase apparent surface area and increase wind loading and that would cause more drift

Last edited by jaia; 06-23-2019 at 08:39 PM.
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  #701  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:55 PM
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My take is that we dont want to combine or confuse wind drift issues with possible transition effect, they are separate issues though happening concurrently.
My interpretation of the the quote is that from a technical basis the transition effect is so negligible as to be a non-issue regard accuracy.
Ammo quality (or lack thereof), operator error, mirage, and light is of far more effect, so yeah, stop blaming the poor groups on transition velo.
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  #702  
Old 06-24-2019, 01:15 PM
jaia
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Remington CBee 33 grain CPHP 22lr rated 748 fps

455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair

These are low quality rimfire.
Canted bullet seating, dented and dinged with out of spec cartridge dimensions.
6 would not chamber, 100 in a box so I kept trying until I fired 50.
Multiple fail to fires, extracted, rotated, bang on second or third try.



Even with the 25 moa rail, had to aim at the red sight point to impact on paper.
Lots of arc to compensate for at 200 yards.




Lots of vertical spread.



ES of 280 fps...Blech.

Last edited by jaia; 06-24-2019 at 01:19 PM.
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  #703  
Old 06-24-2019, 01:30 PM
jaia
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Remington Eley Club 40 grain 22lr, 1085 fps
It's Eley made practice ammo with Remington on the label.

455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair






Multiple fail to fires, extracted, bang on second, third or fourth try.
Not the rifle. The 455 is designed to fire 17hmr and 22wmr.
Clean deep strikes, no primer in the rim at those points.

Last edited by jaia; 06-24-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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  #704  
Old 06-24-2019, 04:23 PM
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Gotta hand it to a guy who will shoot CBees at 200 yards!
And, fwiw, ime, those are way better than any of the other CBs Ive tried (we do out to 50yd). Imagine how bad the others are.
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  #705  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:57 PM
Triggershoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Remington Eley Club 40 grain 22lr, 1085 fps
It's Eley made practice ammo with Remington on the label.

455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair

Multiple fail to fires, extracted, bang on second, third or fourth try.
Not the rifle. The 455 is designed to fire 17hmr and 22wmr.
Clean deep strikes, no primer in the rim at those points.


Jaia, only 33fps extreme spread on this ammo? I would have expected a better result. The cartridges must have other not-so-obvious defects. It looks like you're still out there having fun, though. Love viewing the testing, I know it's a lot of work and expense for you to do it.
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