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Old 07-21-2013, 05:48 PM
pazsint
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Question Having trouble accurizing a 541-S... What am I missing here ?



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I have 2 NIB or near new Rem 541-s factory originals. I only want keep shooting one and sell the other. They are both known to shoot very well, but are not consistent. My goal is to pick one to shoot say 1/2" groups at 100 yards, BUT not glass bed, pillar, nor add the 2nd screw or modify rifle in any permanent way other than the adjust the trigger...at least NOT UNTIL I decide on the one I'll keep, so the other can be sold as factory. Neither rifle had a barrel pressure pad in the stock near the tip, and both actions are quite sloppy in the stock and both barrels tend to touch the stock on one side or the other.

So far I've had little lasting success using shims cut from plastic lids like margerine tubs and pringle cans. I'm using a Leupold 24 x scope, sand bags, target type ammos, and shoot only with very little wind. Many times I've had 3 or 4 shots in a row group at 3/8" or less only to have next several shots scatter and enlarge group up to 2". Once I fired 3 shots in 0.167", then the next day it wouldn't even cut an inch. I've been shimming the action at the receiver and just ahead of the trigger. I've found that additional thinner plastic also placed on one side of the action removed more slop, and lined up barrel in channel so as not to touch sides. I've been using a 3/8" square pad under the barrel near the forearm tip, although I've also tried this shim at several different points along the barrel all the way back to the receiver usually with out success. I tighten the single action screw firmly where it will go in without any bind.

?? SO..> What am I missing here ? Are these plastics not stable and do they squirm or squash and allow bedding to change ? Am I not putting the right size under barrel ? How do you determine what thickness to make the barrel shim ? Should the barrel get much upward pressure ? Should this barrel shim be hard or soft ? What have you used that worked in this situation ? Is there another way to pin down action with glass bedding ? At this point any ideas are appreciated.

Dan
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:38 PM
454ho

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Try this thread - Aluminum Tape Bedding for Bolts
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Old 07-21-2013, 07:03 PM
forrest r

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You'll find this is true with most older rimfire firearms. The bolts on them need cleaned & the fp springs replaced. Your rifles may be nib or about nib but the fp spring has sat in the bolts partially compressed for decades weakening it.

A couple of observations I've noticed over the years & a couple too many rimfires:

If you set a new replacement spring next to the old one you take out, the old spring will be at least a 1/4" shorter than the new replacement spring.

The only way to truely tell if you have a consistent ignition problem is to test the suspect rimfire with a known lot of ammo & a chronograph. If the test ammo has a sd of 7 to 9 in 10 other firearms & a sd of 24 in the suspect firearm. That's a pretty good indication you have ignition problems.

Why I'm mentioning ignition problems is because what your describing is a classic description of a fp/striker spring hanging up. It pays to look at your fired cases to see if the fp indents all look the same (same depth, same dent, same place).
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:16 PM
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Not sure what to tell you..but..I have 6 .22 rifles that each cost over 1,500 (some Well over) and not a one of them will shoot consistant .5 groups at 100 yards. With a factory 541s I would say you have unrealistic expectations.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:54 PM
randymac

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How do they shoot at 50yrds? are you shooting subsonic ammo and using wind flags at 100yrds?
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Merlin View Post
Not sure what to tell you..but..I have 6 .22 rifles that each cost over 1,500 (some Well over) and not a one of them will shoot consistant .5 groups at 100 yards. With a factory 541s I would say you have unrealistic expectations.
That would be my experience also.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:38 AM
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Anytime you shim--UP PRESSURE- a Barrel you are creating stress. A lot of times the humidity, temperature and other variables enter into rifle consistency.

In centerfire rifles if you pressure point they will usually shoot better 3 shot groups but not five shot.

Trying to keep a 541S BONE stock and expecting that kind of accuracy is as previously stated "TOUGH"

My suggestions are if you insist on the pad then loosen the action screw when you are finished shooting and re torque it when you plan on shooting again that way you will have a better way of keeping constant day to day up pressure.

Good luck

Jim
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:57 AM
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[QUOTE=1Merlin;4647402 With a factory 541s I would say you have unrealistic expectations.[/QUOTE]

The 541S is a sporting rifle, they were never built for that kind of performance. I've owned 2 of then and they shot marvelously but .5 inch at 100 yds. is way past my abilities !
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:55 AM
Steve S
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Ditto here, you're asking too much of a 541S and even your ammo and bags.

Remember that with a 22, whatever you shoot for groups at 50 yards is likely to be 4 times as large at 100 yards, not just double the group for double the distance.

For 1/2" at 100 yards, if it was even possible with a 541S, you'd likely need a LeadSled, premium ammo like 10X, RWS 50 or Lapua's top end ammo and a 36X scope.

I just got my 541S what I consider to be "dialed in" at 50 yards. Very well cleaned and then seasoned barrel, trigger to under 2lb., pressure pad 2" back from the forend (a piece of adhesive back tire patch), medium pressure on the action screw, RWS Target Rifle ammo, wind at 5 mph or less (at least between gusts), 3X9 Weaver scope, bags front and rear. Two 5 shot groups right at .38 to .4", and two just under .5". At 100 yards it would be reasonable to expect 2" out of the same combo but likely would even then would need a more powerful scope. As a comparison, I have a Win. 52B that has shot .24" at 50 yards with a 25X scope and the same ammo, but more often is at .3". Also have a Rem 597 with a 20X scope and VQ barrel that shoots .3" to .33" consistently.
Just sayin, and hope this helps--as in most cases, that last bit of accuracy is a bear (and expensive) to come by!

Last edited by Steve S; 07-22-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:57 AM
pazsint
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Arrow Looking for Consistency not Relative accuracy

Remember guys that 1/2" is just a bench mark goal...not that I'll be able to do it all the time. I do have experience with playing out a 541-T, CZ 452 and an old Marlin 780 typically getting down to 3/4" and this with HV hunting ammos...check these CZ groups with common HV's at 100 and 200 yards....
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...Shot_Group.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...shat200yds.jpg

As far as group size to distance ratios, I use ammos that handle the transonic turbulance well so my ratio is more like 2.25 to 2.5 times not 4; so if I shoot a 3/4" group at 100 yards, I expect it would do about 0.35" at 50 yards, and about 1 3/4" at 200 yards under calm conditions.

The weakened firing pin comment definitely has some merit, though I've usually found misfires, off speeds, and light hits when a spring or pin is faulty...still I'll chrony the ammo.

The aluminum tape idea also sounds usable and should eliminate the concern over 'squirming' plastic ...will try it.

Now about the pressure pad... how large, how thick and what to use ? As for location should I keep it on the walnut, not the plastic fore-tip ?

Last edited by pazsint; 07-22-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:22 PM
randymac

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I've only shot my 541s once at 100meters, just one group and it was .600
there is know doubt in my mind it will shoot under .500 at 100yrds
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomasm View Post
The 541S is a sporting rifle, they were never built for that kind of performance. I've owned 2 of then and they shot marvelously but .5 inch at 100 yds. is way past my abilities !
I agree, sporting 22's are best judged at 50 yds.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:46 PM
Steve S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randymac View Post
I've only shot my 541s once at 100meters, just one group and it was .600
there is know doubt in my mind it will shoot under .500 at 100yrds
You are WAY out of my league!
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:50 PM
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541-s

I have a 541-s i was having ignition problems and after the bolt was taken apart and cleaned good and get all the gunk accumulated thru the years put a new firing pin in while i was at it. I have had zero problems since then. Sent you a pm on your rifle if you would like to sell.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randymac View Post
I've only shot my 541s once at 100meters, just one group and it was .600
there is know doubt in my mind it will shoot under .500 at 100yrds
One group means nothing. When you can do it over and over then you have the rifles ability. JMHO
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