The Victor is killing me! - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Notices

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-25-2019, 11:24 PM
SIGthusiast
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Sep 2005
Location: 
Utah, USA
Posts: 
70
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Unhappy The Victor is killing me!



Log in to see fewer ads
I bought a Victor about 5 years ago. I have been tuning the lips on several different mags and just can't get it to feed. The second round is almost always high. I just purchased two of the new production mags from Brownell's (International Armament Corp). Same function out of the bag. After a full day at the range just messing with them getting no better.

I'm ready to give up on this gun. I love how it shoots. Just not enjoyable to to clear jams all the time. Should I give up? Find a High Standard smith?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20181022_120229.jpg (644.6 KB, 33 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:48 AM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
7,212
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Call Alan Aronstein (after Camp Perry competition). He can fix your problem. Those are his magazines and I rarely if ever see complaints here about them in contrast to Triple K magazines.

I have successfully turned my Hi Std mags starting with the publicized lip spacing numbers and mild tweaking. My method is intensive and uses live ammo as the final test and dummies initially. For safety sake the firing pin is removed as well as the recoil spring. I operated the slide by hand and watch how the dummies feed, tweaking as necessary. The final test with dummies is a mag of dummies with the slide operated by hand as fast as I can. I then load up 10 live rounds and operate the slide as fast as I can. I suggest you do this at the range, pointing the gun down range. When I am done and the firing pin and recoil spring are refitted, a range test is the final test.

Theses guns are super sensitive to ammo, magazine lip tune, and recoil spring condition. Everything must be right for reliable operation. Most Hi Std users and competitors settle in on CCI Std Vel ammo but any Standard Velocity ammo rated at about 1080 FPS velocity (CCI Std Vel clones for bullet weight and velocity) usually will also work.

When these guns are "ON" they are jewels and give excellent accuracy with a superior trigger. They need recoil spring replacements when the recoil spring drops its force by 10% or every 10 to 15 thousand rounds. Any new to you Hi Std should not be used without the recoil spring changed out with either the OEM 5.5 pound spring or the Wolfe 6 pound variable rate spring. Failure to do this regularly can lead to a cracked frame (this is a weak point of the design!).

Contact Alan...he will help you.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:07 AM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
7,212
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
To be clear OFM Corp is the former gunsmiths and assemblers that worked for Alan, some for decades, at High Standard of Houston Texas. The Houston Texas version of Hi Std is now bankrupt after Alan left their employ. OFM Corp gunsmiths know Hi Std's! Alan acts as their agent on occasion.

Contact Alan (interarmstx.com) after Camp Perry competitions complete. He can help you or guide you.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:02 AM
jdavis

Join Date: 
Mar 2013
Posts: 
102
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
SIGthusiast, do you have a magazine adjustment tool? If not, pick up one on ebay for a few bucks. It will get you very close to the proper adjustment by following the instructions. Do you have a factory magazine that functions properly? If so, you can insert the tool into the factory magazine and observe how it exactly fits the tool and adjust your new magazines accordingly.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:44 AM
Test_Engineer

Join Date: 
Nov 2014
Location: 
On a Colorado glacier
Posts: 
1,906
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGthusiast View Post
I bought a Victor about 5 years ago. I have been tuning the lips on several different mags and just can't get it to feed. The second round is almost always high. I just purchased two of the new production mags from Brownell's (International Armament Corp). Same function out of the bag. After a full day at the range just messing with them getting no better.

I'm ready to give up on this gun. I love how it shoots. Just not enjoyable to to clear jams all the time. Should I give up? Find a High Standard smith?
You've pretty much proven that the mags are NOT the problem. It's the gun. People don't want to hear it, but it's true.

I had a Ruger MKIII that was the same way. I cleared thousands of jams and ruined several mags messing with the lips before I studied the stack dynamics of the mags and figured out what the problem was. It's the way the mag is positioned in the pistol. It's tipped too far forward.

The single stack mags of the high standard have the same stack dynamics as the Ruger mags. I fixed my MKIII by shimming the bottom of the mag well to force the base a little more forward. At first, it was too far forward and that caused the cases of rounds 2-10 to get dinted on top by the round feeding above. So you can go too far with the adjustment. When you get it right, every round feeds beautifully.

Even though my MKII was not jamming, I found shimming the top-front of it's mag well a little improved it's feeding from ka-chunk ka-chunk to zip zip zip!

Seems to be a pretty common problem. Browning, Ruger, Smith, and so on. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone blamed the mags when the pistol was the real problem.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:18 PM
Alan Aronstein

Join Date: 
Sep 2010
Posts: 
885
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Big Question !!!!!

Is this a Texas made Victor or Conn Made Victor ??????? - Alan Aronstein
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-28-2019, 08:38 PM
mr alexander
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Jan 2013
Location: 
Wisconsin
Posts: 
627
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
The Victor is killing me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Engineer View Post

I fixed my MKIII by shimming the bottom of the mag well to force the base a little more forward.

Even though my MKII was not jamming, I found shimming the top-front of it's mag well a little improved it's feeding from ka-chunk ka-chunk to zip zip zip!
Test_Engineer,

I am curious as to what material and method you used for shimming purposes.

Also, in one instance, the bottom of the mag well was shimmed, while the top

front was shimmed in another. How does one go about determining where the

shims should be placed?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-29-2019, 06:39 AM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
7,212
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Some early Houston Texas Hi Std guns had an enlarged magazine well (by the mistake of the sub contractor who did the investment casting of the frames). During that time the late Jim Barta developed a mod to these frames to straighten up the magazine in these loose mag wells.

http://www.histandard.info/Jim_Barta/TXMAGWELL.pdf

It was extensive and on a handful of frames even this did not work (seriously bad examples). I got one of those really BAD frames and Alan Aronstein, then at TX Hi Std, replaced the frame with a new stainless frame. Gun now works perfect. But the Barta mod might work on guns less severely impacted versions (??). No Connecticut guns had this problem of the oversized mag well, as far as I know. I don't think they had cast frames.

Again, SIGthusiast, I suggest you talk with Alan Aronstein to get his feedback before doing anything more. interarmstx.com

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-29-2019, 12:12 PM
Test_Engineer

Join Date: 
Nov 2014
Location: 
On a Colorado glacier
Posts: 
1,906
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
LDBennet,

Thanks for posting that pdf. Up to a point, Barta's analysis was spot on and his fix was excellent. However, his analysis stopped before correctly figuring out why the forward rotated mags caused jams, and also what role ammo selection plays.

BTW- your pistol with the "really BAD frame" could have been fixed by adding a second shim that forced the bottom of the mag to sit more forward.

From the pdf:
"The combination of these factors (bigger than needed magazine well, non-positive front latch) in the TX frames result in feeding problems. When the slide tries to strip a round from the magazine it forces the top of the magazine toward the front of the magazine well. The military magazine actually rotates around the magazine latch and tips forward and downward, in effect changing the feed angle downward and decreasing the distance from the feed lips to back of the barrel..."

Mag wells must, by necessity, be larger than the magazines. You would have to pound them in and pry them out otherwise. But where many manufacturer's screw the pooch is they allow an excessive space at the top/front and/or bottom/rear of the mag well. That allows the mags to rotate forward as Jim described.

Continuing the above paragraph:
"... forcing the bullet into the "feed ramp" area of the grip. This will cause the scraped, deformed lead that precludes good chambering."

This is where Jim's analysis goes in the ditch. If you start with a really "BAD" frame and rotate the mag to an extreme forward position and incrementally rotate it back to an extremely rotated back position, this is what you'll find happens with each increment:

1) Feedramp jam - the bullet moves forward and rams into the bottom of the feedramp, stopping the feed.

2) Overshoot jam - the bullet moves up the feedramp and the feeding cartridge exceeds the magazine's "flip angle". The cartridge then flips up causing the bullet to miss the chamber completely and collide with the top of the receiver. The feed stops as the bullet hits the top of the barrel face. The picture in post #1 is a great example.

3) Tip-up jam - the feed starts the same as in the overshoot jam, but the bullet's upward travel is halted by colliding with the top of the chamber mouth. This leaves a nice "upside down smiley" imprinted in the nose of the bullet.

4) Partial feed jam - this feeds like the tip-up jam, but the bullet nose actually enters the chamber. The feed is stopped by the cartridge rim getting pinched between the bolt face and the extractor at too rotated of an angle.

5) Bent bullet feed - the round successfully feeds, but the bullet gets bent downward in the cartridge as it enters the chamber. Terrible accuracy is the main symptom.

6) Ka-chunk feed - the round feeds successfully without damage to the round, but a cartridge with "loose" bullets can easily become a "Bent bullet feed".

7) Ideal feed - The cartridge is released from the mag just as the bullet reaches the top of the feedramp and it's nose has entered the chamber. Greatest accuracy and reliability is achieved with the feed.

8) Minor case denting - Rounds feed seemingly okay, but the round below the feeding round receives a small dimple on the top of the case about 1/4" ahead of the rim.

9) Major case denting - Same as minor case denting, but dents may become major enough to preclude the case from fully seating in the chamber. This may result in an OOB, or failures to fire.

10) Over-run jam - In this jam, the bolt overruns the cartridge rim and severely dents the feeding cartridge case. It will probably also damage the round below it, and may even drag that round partially out of the mag resulting in what some call a "double feed".

Some of the key observations made by Jim Barta match mine precisely:

A) Pistols with a "heel" type mag release are far less likely to have jamming issues than pistols with a "button" type release. This is partially because the mag sits higher and therefore closer to being in-line with the chamber. But more importantly, they hold the bottom of the mag forward and limit the mag's ability to rotate forward.

B) The distance between the rear mag lips and the barrel face set the timing of the feed. A mag that is rotated forward tends to release the rim too late which adds greatly to the probability of feeding issues.

C) "Over the years of working with many, many High Standards I’ve noticed that there was seldom any feeding problem or need of magazine lip adjusting in slant grip guns."

I'd go a little further and say that adjusting mag lips is seldom needed for ANY mag that the gun correctly positions and controls it.

My own observations about magazines:

SAMMI spec for 22lr overall cartridge length is 0.950" to "1.000". The length of many mags (including HS) is less than this, causing the rounds to sit at an angle relative to the front/back walls. The forces in play make the middle rounds sit with the rim against the back wall and the bullet nose against the front wall. The angle the cartridge sits at is EXTEMELY important. I call this the FLIP ANGLE.

Why this angle is important is because if the feeding round's angle reaches/exceeds this angle, it will FLIP upward. That means the magazine can no longer control the round, at least by itself. If the nose of the bullet has already entered the chamber, an upward flip simply moves the bullet/chamber contact from bottom to top. But feed jams #2-3 above result if the flip happens before the chamber has captured the bullet nose. This is 1/2 the reasons why bullet cartridge length is sometimes a factor in feeding problems. The other 1/2 is the fact that shorter cartridges will sit flatter in the mag. That means shorter cartridges create a shallower flip angle relative to the chamber and will cause the flip to occur sooner during the feed. These two things taken together explains why some pistols have problems feeding some ammo, while working fine with other (longer) types.

So in my experience, it appears there is a very small mag placement window where "ideal feeds" occur. There's no more than about 1/32" at the top and "1/64" at the bottom of the mag. But "ideal feeds" aren't necessary for having "acceptable" feeds. But I strive to reach ideal before lowering the standard to "as good as it's going to get". I do this by using the shortest 22LR ammo I can find within SAAMI spec. Winchester 555's typically, because at 0.955", they're at the low end. If my pistols feed this stuff okay, they feed anything.

So to answer the question of where to add shims, each pistol needs to be tuned individually. I strive to have the Winchester round stay down on the feedramp until it's nose is just inside the chamber when it flips up. And I want the mag lips to release once the nose is in. It's probably easiest to set the top shims for release timing first IMO. But you really need to use the mag position info above to guide your shimming. Like #8-10 above shows, you can shim to rotate too far back. Take your time and check often.

Last edited by Test_Engineer; 06-29-2019 at 12:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:31 PM
moonjohn
US Air Force Veteran

Join Date: 
May 2015
Posts: 
269
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
The Frame Problem with Some Early Texas High Standards:

The Connecticut High Standard Magazine wells were precisely sized because the magazine wells were formed using a die.
Any slop in magazine fit was caused by slop in the magazines themselves.
Connecticut High Standards guns can have a little play, fore and aft, with magazine movements if the magazines are undersized.
This usually can be tolerated without issue.

The problem the “Problem Texas High Standards” had was - excessive play, fore and aft, with the magazines because the magazine wells were over sized.

Now imagine a mind experiment where you have a magic screw on the frame of the “Problem High Standard” which can fix the position of the magazines forward/aft.

Turn the screw clockwise and the magazine will travel/lock to the full forward position.

Typically, the magazine would not feed here.
But there is a 10% probability that the magazine lips can be adjusted so that the magazine will feed reliably.

We now would have a fully functioning gun.

Now turn the magic screw counterclockwise so that the magazine travels to the full aft position.

But now, the magazine will again not feed.
But, if we adjust the magazine lips again, there is a 90% probability the gun/magazine will again feed reliably.

But now, it would not feed if we returned to the full forward position.

This is what the “Jim Barta's Fix” was about – to lock the magazine in the full aft position.

Unless the magazine is fixed to a given position, the magazine will never feed reliably because it will be in a different position each time the slide is cycled:
Sometimes the magazine will be in the forward position.
Sometimes the magazine will be in the aft position.
Sometimes it will be somewhere in between.

Therefore, the magazine lips are guaranteed to be incorrectly adjusted on any given cycle.

The principal cause of the feeding problem is not the angle of the magazine, it is the variable distance between the chamber face an the front of the rear magazine lips.

The distance should be about .8 inch.
If the distance is less that .8 inch the cartridge will tend to feed low.
If the distance is greater than .8 inch, the cartridge will feed high.

Some variance from .8 inch can be accommodated by adjusting the magazine lips.
But, it only works within certain limits; beyond those limits, the adjustment will have no useful effect.

Ideally, you would turn the magic screw to where the distance was fixed at .8 inch.
Adjust the lips and be happy for the rest of your life.

Achieving the .8 inch distance will not guarantee the magazine will feed.
It is only one parameter that must be met.
But it is a necessary parameter.

Imagine a Bell Curve.
It has a peak and a standard deviation.
The peak represents the most efficient feeding.
The standard deviation is where the feeding stops.

I'll make up some numbers to illustrate how it works.
Say the peak is .8 and the standard deviation is .05.

Then the feeding range distance would be .75 to .85.
At .8 inch feeding would be perfect.
But as you approached .75 or .85 the feeding would become problematic and no feeding would occur beyond 1 standard deviation.
The fun thing is that there are perhaps a dozen Bell Curves that likewise control feeding and they all must all be satisfied for feeding to be reliable.

Distance to rear lips.
Magazine well size.
Cartridge length.
Cartridge rim diameter.
Bullet shape.
Magazine spring strength.
Magazine wall thickness.
Magazine movement.
Slide spring strength.
Slide speed.
Magazine height.
Rear lips spacing.
Front lip spacing.
Extractor performance.
Etc.
…........

There was a complaint on this forum that a High Standard was not feeding properly.
It was mentioned the magazine was loose in the frame.
As a test, I suggested he jam some paper in front of the magazine to hold the magazine back in the frame.
The gun then fed fine, but of course, its impractical to jam paper in front of the magazine each time you load the gun.
Its just a test.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:41 PM
Alan Aronstein

Join Date: 
Sep 2010
Posts: 
885
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Frame Issue

Did I miss something ??? Is this a bad casting from the Texas plant that was NEVER sent for replacement over the 3 years that we tried to get them back.??? Or- is this a Conn Plant pistol that had the initial drilled holes for the magazine well in the wrong place ??? What is the serial number ??? The Conn magazine wells started out as a solid area. It was hard to make a mistake in the drilling and broaching BUT, I have seen several different REAL bad magazine wells.- Alan Aronstein
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-04-2019, 11:53 AM
Test_Engineer

Join Date: 
Nov 2014
Location: 
On a Colorado glacier
Posts: 
1,906
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonjohn View Post
Unless the magazine is fixed to a given position, the magazine will never feed reliably...
This is absolutely true!

Quote:
The principal cause of the feeding problem is not the angle of the magazine, it is the variable distance between the chamber face an the front of the rear magazine lips.

The distance should be about .8 inch.
If we're talking about Overshoot jams like the OP pictured, I respectfully and very strongly disagree. The distance between the chamber face and rear feed lips is important, but it has NOTHING to do with why the feeding bullet missed the chamber. It missed the chamber because the feeding cartridge rotated up beyond the flip angle of the magazine. And that is determined by the angle the magazine is sitting in the mag well.

Feed lip distance determines when the cartridge rim is released. Too late causes Partial feed jams, bent/scraped bullets, and clunky "Ka-chunk" feeds. The correct distance for the feed lips is to release the rim as soon as the shortest SAAMI spec round's nose has entered the chamber mouth. Any sooner release and the round will not be controlled.

Quote:
Ideally, you would turn the magic screw to where the distance was fixed at .8 inch.
...
There was a complaint on this forum that a High Standard was not feeding properly.
It was mentioned the magazine was loose in the frame.
As a test, I suggested he jam some paper in front of the magazine to hold the magazine back in the frame.
The gun then fed fine, but of course, its impractical to jam paper in front of the magazine each time you load the gun.
Its just a test.
I submit that your "test fix" worked because it rotated the magazine back ,which increased the it's flip angle so that the feeding round no longer exceeded it.

It would be interesting to test your theory that the increased feed lip distance was what fixed it. I would have tested your theory by jamming the paper in back of the magazine and marking the reed lips at 0.8" from the chamber. Then filed the feed lips off there so that the fully forward mag had the feed lips set at your proposed "magic" distance.

My bet is the pistol would have jammed with every single round. The bullet needs to enter the chamber before releasing the rim becomes relevant, so angling the magazine correctly is more important than setting the distance between the lips and chamber. JMO.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-04-2019, 07:35 PM
Poppajo

Join Date: 
Feb 2019
Posts: 
5
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
I’m very new at the High Standard and found it to be confusing in not able to get help and not a lot of gunsmith work on them mostly from a lack of part for it. I had issues feeding also and in the adjustment process I was going from a jamb into or below the chamber to a stovepipe situation I replaced all the springs and that helped a lot (Wolff spring was not any help at all) nurich had all the correct spring then bought a mag adjusting tool and I finally was able to run consistently. I also had a problem with some ammo not classified as high velocity and it would jam I dropped to a 1050 and I’m pleased to say it runs very well. Hope this helps and you also find enjoyment in your Victor
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-29-2019, 03:06 PM
octalman
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Mar 2009
Location: 
Texas
Posts: 
107
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Victor Problems

SIGtthusiast,

Started with a Bull Barrel Military Trophy shooting bullseye competition long ago. To this day that pistol almost never hiccups. After acquiring a Citation, 2 Victors and several magazines trouble with those pistols followed. Found Jim Barta's magazine lip adjustment and shimming process. After much agony 1 Victor became reliable. The other Victor and Citation remained very magazine sensitive. The Trophy handled anything.

My observations. The three original magazines used in the Trophy for 15+ years were never adjusted and functioned nearly flawless. None had lips adjusted within spec. They did fit very snugly with tiny fore - aft movement in the mag well. Same mags moved around more in the Citation and 2 Victors.

Acquired 8 more genuine HS mags finding quite a bit of variation in dimensions. A couple were sloppy in the Trophy making it less reliable. Although it tolerated mag dimension variation much better than the other 3 pistols. The worst fit in the mag well caused issues that could not be overcome by endless mag lip adjustment. Shimming a mag for tighter fit helped, but never could achieve all mags working well in all pistols.

As some of the other posts explain in more technical detail, good fit in the mag well is very important. I would tackle that issue before mag lip adjustment.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-30-2019, 01:22 AM
brassburnz

Join Date: 
Dec 2006
Posts: 
127
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
SIGEnthusiast: I feel your pain. i used to shoot bullseye with my Hamden Victor and it took me a while before I could complete a string without an alibi. Fortunately the members of my club were very experienced and helpful. They told me to keep shooting the Ruger or buy a Model 41. :-)

Actually, the guys told me to stick with one lot of ammo. It wasn't enough to stick with one brand. I used Wolf Match Target. Then I clearly numbered all of my magazines and kept a log of problems encountered with every string of fire. Eventually I ended up with one magazine that worked all the time.

From there I was able to get another magazine to work most of the time. I did have to massage the magazine lips. After a while I was able to tell if a magazine was bad just by looking at the feed lips.

By the time I got the Victor runing the way I liked it, someone let me shoot their Marvel .22 Conversion on a 1911. That was it. I bought two Marvel Conversions and retired the Victor. The first Marvel had a .44 inch test target and the second a .66. I was lucky if I could hold a 5 inch slow fire group.

One thing I wanted to do, but the fellas talked me out of was stripping the Victor down and running it in an ultrasonic cleaner. They said it doesn't run that badly and just needs a few tweaks. Apparently they never tore down their pistols completely. Somebody said they'd do it at the end of the season, but his buddy said, "He never cleans it. Probably doesn't know how to take it apart."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Squirrel Hunters! The Tree Kind! firstshot Hunting 52101 Yesterday 10:28 PM
Stovespipes are killing my bullseye! NewBuckmark1234 Model 41 Pistol 21 10-22-2018 01:27 PM
CZ 452 killing power PABear CZ / Brno 25 09-12-2017 10:28 PM
Killing time..thinking ? The best .22s i like.. buckweet Open Rimfire 27 09-08-2017 09:23 PM



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 AM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com
x